Dale Pauls Neither Male nor Female Gal328

Dale Pauls 1 Timothy 2 was the Spirit of Christ promising to lead Paul into all truth not competent?
Naomi Walters: Jesus didn't give that role or dole to any man not ready to GO, suffer and die and not tamper with the Word.

Dale Pauls on Neither Male Nor Female is minister of the Stamford Church of Christ in Stamford, Connecticut. We will look first at SEVEN QUESTIONS.

Click for new notes to prove that RELIGIOUS CULTURE was women dominated and we see no male suppression of females in the pagan religions. Therefore, comparing the roles of women to OUR CULTURE about slavery is ill founded.

See Don Haymes on his 9.5 Thesis which rejects inspiration but uses it to repudiate Paul.

Stamford church of Christ was featured as one of the exodus churches in the Christian Chronicle Exodus Connecticut Christian Chronicle. Jim Pounders one of the originals noted that "What is thrilling to us is that the church has become what we dreamed that it would be," said Pounders, praising the congregation's enthusiasm and spiritual zeal."

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: Our church family has been studying and prayerfully reflecting on women's roles in our public gatherings since 1988.

God Almighty in Holy Scripture revealed it so that Simple Simon could read BLACT text on BROWN Paper. The meaning of IS IS that Scrpture says that WOMEN  thought that trueht began with them. Secondly Women as mediators in song and sermon never learned--neither did Dale--

1Tim. 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Tim. 2:5 For there is ONE GOD, and
        one mediator between God and men,
        the MAN Christ Jesus;
1Tim. 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be TESTIFIED in due time.

Paul had to SEE and hear the voice of Jesus of Nazareth now in the STATE of Holy Spirit to be a WITNESS of that Last will and DELIVER it to the HEIRS.

1Tim. 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Dale Pauls nor any female can be a preacher meaning EYE-WITNESS.

Our concern has been how best to understand and apply the scriptural principle that there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:28).

Dale Pauls thinks that Paul said BOTH male and female. Jesus didn't WHINE: He taught only what God commanded Him to Teach.
Dale Pauls and the women he can mislead, have no intention of speaking only what Jesus Commanded to be taught and observed until He comes.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him,
        RABBI, we know that thou art a TEACHER come from God:
        for no man can do these miracles
        that thou doest, except God be with him.

THERE WAS AND IS ONLY ONE RABBI WHO REMOVES THE VEIL FROM THE EYES OF CONVERTS SO THAT HE OPENS HIS WORD WHICH IS SPIRIT (John 6:63)

Gal. 3:23 But before FAITH (gospel] came, we were kept under the law,
            shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ,
        that we might be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But after that faith is come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOLMASTER

3807. paidagogos, pahee-dag-o-gos´; from 3816 and a reduplicated form of 71; a boy-leader, i.e. a servant whose office it was to take the CHILDREN TO SCHOOL(by implication, (figuratively) a tutor (“paedagogue”)): — instructor, schoolmaster.

NEITHER-PREACHER TEACHER OF THAT WHICH HAS ONCE BEEN DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS.

Gal. 3:26 FOR ye are all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets,
        And they shall be all taught of [BY] God.
        Every man therefore that hath heard,
        and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Gal. 3:27 For [Enim what I Mean is] as many of you as have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ.
Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek,
        there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed,
         and HEIRS according to the promise.

Paul didn't whine that the only thing that He Did from the High Seat and Pulpit was to READ from the Prophets who defined the future REST of His assembly as a SCHOOL OF THE WORD.

1Tim. 2:7 Whereunto I am ORDAINED a PREACHER, and an apostle, (
        I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Ordained position, situation, disposition, order, arrangement.  Gold PICKED Paul: He had to HEAR THE VOICE and SEE the risen Christ to be a Preacher.

praedĭcātor , ōris, m. 1. praedico. I. n gen., one who makes a thing publicly known, a proclaimer, publisher, crier
A. One who publicly commends a thing, a praiser, eulogist (class.): “beneficii, testis
        testis, one who attests any thing (orally or in writing), a witness (oculatus testis   AN EYE-WITNESS

1Tim. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the WOMAN being deceived was in the transgression.

h802. אִ, ish-shaw´; feminine of 376 or 582; irregular plural,נָashiym, naw-sheem´; a woman (used in the same wide sense as 582):—(adulter)ess, each, every, female, x many, + none, one, + together, wife, woman. Often unexpressed in English

g582.    ʾenowsh, en-oshe´; from 605; properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120); hence, a man in general (singly or collectively)

g605. אָanash, aw-nash´; a primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy:—desperate(-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.

mŭlĭer   “pudica mulier,” as a term of reproach, a woman, i. e. a coward, poltroon: “non me arbitratur militem, sed mulierem,” Plaut. Bacch. 4, 8, 4. to make womanish, render effeminate

Paul silenced WOMEN because He asked DID TRUTH BEGIN WITH YOU?

AS arbitratur   2. To think, suppose, as opp. to knowing Hence of the mind, to examine, consider, weigh: “diligentius carmina Empedoclis,”   dī-lĭgo  “experientissimus ac diligentissimus orator,

1 Cor. 14:34 Let your women keep SILENCE in the CHURCHES: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Tim. 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

g2271. hesuchia, hay-soo-khee´-ah; feminine of 2272; (as noun) STILLNESS, i.e. desistance from bustle or language: — quietness, silence.

g2272.  hesuchios, hay-soo´-khee-os; a prolonged form of a compound probably of a derivative of the base of 1476 and perhaps 2192; properly, KEEPING ONE'S SEAT (SEDENTARY)  i.e. (by implication) still (undisturbed, undisturbing): — peaceable, quiet.

kept silence, Ov. F. 1, 183: “huic facietis Fabulae silentium, silentio facto, silence being obtained, a being still or silent, noiselessness, stillness, silence  orationis silentio praeteriretur

orationis  II . In partic., formal language, artificial discourse, set speech

praeteriretur   disregarded, perish, pass away, pass without attention or fulfilment

Wisdom of Solomon 1:7 - Because the Spirit of the Lord has filled the world, and that which holds all things together knows what is said;
8 - therefore no one who utters unrighteous things will escape notice, and justice, when it punishes, will not pass him by.
9 - For inquiry will be made into the counsels of an ungodly man, and a report of his words will come to the Lord, to convict him of his lawless deeds;
10 - because a jealous ear hears all things, and the sound of murmurings does not go unheard.

1Tim. 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness
Anilis  I.  of or pertaining to an old woman.

I.  Lit.: “voltus,” Verg. A. 7, 416: “passus,” Ov. M. 13, 533: “aetas,” Col. 2, 1, 2.—

II.  Often in a contemptuous sense, like an old woman, old womanish, anile: “ineptiae paene aniles,” Cic. Tusc. 1, 39, 93: “superstitio imbecilli animi atque anilis,” id. Div. 2, 60; so id. N. D. 2, 28; 3, 5; * Hor. S. 2, 6, 77; Quint. 1, 8, 19.—Comp. and sup. not used.—* Adv.: ănīlĭter , like an old woman: “dicere aliquid,” Cic. N. D. 3, 39.

Fabula self-composed sermons, fiction,
*II. In partic. (freq. and class.), a fictitious narrative, a tale, story (syn.: apologus, narratio): narrationum tris accepimus species, fabulam, quae versatur in tragoediis atque carminibus non a veritate modo, sed etiam a forma veritatis remota, argumentum ... historiam, So of idle tales: “ineptas et aniles fabulas devita,” Vulg. 1 Tim. 4, 7 al.—

B. Of particular kinds of poetry.

1. Most freq., a dramatic poem, drama, play (syn.: “ludus, cantus, actio, etc.): in full, fabula scaenica,” Amm. 28, 1, 4; “or, theatralis,” id. 14, 6, 20: “fabula ad actum scenarum composita,” Quint. 5, 10, 9;

1.Timothy.2.Women.Authority.Authentia.html

A Female cannot be Audible and Visible--as females now demand--without SEXUAL authority Purpose Driven to take the attention off the WORD.

1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without WRATH and DOUBTING

īra  A passion inspired by anger commotus

Orgi-a , iôn, ta, secret rites, secret worship, practised by the initiated, of the rites of the Cabeiri [homosexuals] and Demeter, of Orpheus, of Cybele, most freq. of the rites of Dionysus .2.81, E.Ba.34, al., Theoc.26.13.

II. generally, RITES, orgia Mousôn [Rev 18:22] Ar.Ra.356 . Aphroditês [similar to Lucifer or Zoe].

-Orgi-a , iôn, ta,
A. secret rites, secret worship, practised by the initiated, a post-Hom. word ; used of the worship of Demeter at Eleusis, h.Cer.273,476. Ar.Ra.386, Th.948 ; of the rites of the Cabeiri and Demeter Achaia, Hdt.2.51,5.61; of Orpheus, Id.2.81; of Eumolpus, App.Anth.1.318 ; of Cybele, E.Ba.78 (lyr.): most freq. of the rites of Dionysus, Hdt.2.81, E.Ba.34, al., Theoc.26.13.\II. generally, rites, sacrifices, SIG57.4 (Milet., v B. C.), A.Th.179 (lyr.), S.Tr.765, Ant.1013 ; “orgia Mousōn” Ar.Ra.356. cogn. with erdō, rhezō, cf. ergon, orgeōn. [Musical Instrument]

Propheta and prŏphētes , ae, m., = prophêtês, I. a foreteller, soothsayer, prophet
Hariolus I. a soothsayer, prophet, prophetess  Chresmodotes one who gives oracles,

-Orgi-a , iôn, ta,
A. secret rites, secret worship, practised by the initiated, a post-Hom. word ; used of the worship of Demeter at Eleusis, h.Cer.273,476. Ar.Ra.386, Th.948 ; of the rites of the Cabeiri and Demeter Achaia, Hdt.2.51,5.61; of Orpheus, Id.2.81; of Eumolpus, App.Anth.1.318 ; of Cybele, E.Ba.78 (lyr.): most freq. of the rites of Dionysus, Hdt.2.81, E.Ba.34, al., Theoc.26.13.

II. generally, rites, sacrifices, SIG57.4 (Milet., v B. C.), A.Th.179 (lyr.), S.Tr.765, Ant.1013 ; “orgia Mousōn” Ar.Ra.356.
cogn. with erdō, rhezō, cf. ergon, orgeōn.
Propheta and prŏphētes , ae, m., = prophêtês, I. a foreteller, soothsayer, prophet
Hariolus I. a soothsayer, prophet, prophetess  Chresmodotes one who gives oracles,

Hariolus   I. a soothsayer, prophet, prophetess  Chresmodotes one who gives oracles, pophet, soothsayer

Orge I. natural impulse or propension: one's temper, temperament, disposition, orgê , hê, II. passion, anger, wrath, 3. Panos orgai panic fears (i. e. terrors sent by Pan), Eur.:--but, orgê tinos anger against a person or at a thing, Soph.; hierôn orgas wrath at or because of the rites, Aesch.

1Tim. 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

[1] Authent-ēs A. murderer, Hdt.1.117, E.Rh.873, Th.3.58; “tinos” E.HF1359, A.R.2.754; suicide, Antipho 3.3.4, D.C.37.13: 

A woman will not be SAFE in bearing children and nether will her offspring: exposing the child to die is not as vile as exposing a child to false teaching.

[2]  more loosely, one of a murderer's family, E.Andr.172. 

Eur. Andr. 172 [170] But you, wretched woman, are so far gone in folly that you bring yourself to sleep with the son of the man who killed your husband and to bear children from those who are murderers of your kin. That is the way all barbarians are: father lies with daughter and son with mother [175] and brother with sister, nearest kin murder each other,

[3]  2.  perpetrator, author, “praxeōs” Plb.22.14.2; “hierosulias
 [A Temple Robber or a robber of faithful churches to join the instrumental sectarians] “dēmos authentēs khthonos”

Dale Paul by enticing women to be VISIBLE, AUDIBLE, AND EXERCISING AUTHORITY. That prohibits male and female from composing their own SONGS and SERMONS.

praxis    action in drama, opp. logos, [Regulative Principle outlawing Rhetoric, singing, playing an instrument or ACTING.

2. action, exercise, kheirōn, skelōn, stomatos, phōnēs, dianoias, Pl.La.192a.

3. euphem. for sexual intercourse, Pi. Fr.127, Aeschin.1.158, etc.; in full, “hē p. hē gennētikē” Arist.HA539b20.

4. magical operation, spellaction in drama, opp. logos,

Plat. Lach. 192a quickness, [ērōtōn] as we find it in running and harping [kitharizein], in speaking and learning  2. practice, i.e. trickery, treachery, VIII. discourse, lecture of a rhetorician or philosopher, Jul.Or.2.59c,

[4] “dēmos  authentē  khthonos” 3. Earth, as a goddess,  E.Supp.442 A.Pr.207, Eu.6.

E.Supp.442
Orestes
Lady Athena, first of all I will take away a great anxiety from your last words. I am not a suppliant in need of purification, nor did I sit at your image with pollution on my hands. [445] I will give you strong proof of this. It is the law for one who is defiled by shedding blood to be barred from speech until he is sprinkled with the blood of a new-born victim by a man who can purify from murder. [450] Long before at other houses I have been thus purified both by victims and by flowing streams.
ores-teros [Homosexual], a, on, poet. for oreinos, epith. of a snake, Il.22.93 ; of wolves and lions, Od.10.212 ; A.“orestera pambōti ga” S.Ph.391 (lyr.); “parthenos” E.Tr.551 (lyr.); “agreutēres” Opp.H.4.586. (Posit. Adj. formed from oros （to）, opp. agroteros from agros.）

agr-eutēs , ou, ho,

A  hunter, epith. of Apollo as slayer of Python, S.OC1091(lyr.), PFlor.297.19 (vi A.D.): metaph., of sleep, “a. ptēnou phasmatos” AP12.125 (Mel.).

II.  Adj., kunes a. hounds, Sol.23; a. kalamoi a fowler's trap of reeds, AP7.171 (Mnasalc
A Kunes is a word of reproach against Helen, yapping dogs, Catamites
[5] “authenta hēlie  Helios, the sun-god, Od.8.271   Hēliou astēr, of the planet Saturn, identified with Apollon,
Helius, the sun-god, son of Hyperion father of Circe [Circe, Kirke or church is the holy harlot around Patmos
[7] astēr aster' opōrinō  II. metaph. of illustrious persons, etc., “phanerōtaton aster' Athēnas” E.Hipp.1122 (lyr.);
[8] “Mousaōn astera kai Kharitōn” GRACES [The Muses in Revelation 18 as sorcerers were led by Apollon and were known as adulterers and SHEPHERDESSES. They were the Brides or Nymphs in Revelation as part of the Hieros Gamos: They are called sorcerers using the same word as the original Babylon Mother of Harlots.  That is why John groups sorcerers with dogs (male priests) and promised that THEY WILL BE CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE 

We want to be true to Scripture. And as part of our being true to Scripture, we recognize our responsibility to outsiders seeking faith (in the spirit of Matt. 9:9-13; 1 Cor. 9:19-23; and Titus 2:3-10). Since 1993 we have circulated these questions broadly among members and leaders of the Churches of Christ nationwide. And the decisions we make concerning faith and gender continue to be driven by these basic questions.

That conclusion demands a certain but delayed trying to make up out minds about homosexuals.
Dale Paul and Ken Durham at Stamford depend on the women as authority to define authentia authority as "erotic and murderous" to give THEM the authority Jesus as Christ and Spirit just plain GOOFED by not including preachers with "Have Apostasy and will travel to all of the once Bible Colleges."

They always lie that just following the Text which has not been Paulited for these 2,000 years is just our TRADITION and we are afraid to deliberately VIOLATE the direct commands in the Post-Biblical age.

Throughout these years, it was clear that the elders were involved and supportive of this process, which at the very beginning meant primarily their insistence that the subject be fully understood and discussed contextually. I took the lead in the actual teaching; but throughout the process the elders and I, with our wives and various resource people within the congregation—Curt Marshall, Scott Johnson and Eddie Pleasant merit special mention—kept meeting and studying,

Fundamentally, however, we concluded that there is still much that is not known about either appropriate EXEGESIS of the relevant texts or the nature of sexual orientation—

that the information needed to make wise decisions on the church's views on homosexuality
lags perhaps some twenty or thirty years behind the information needed to understand that women's voices
must [WILL] finally be heard in the public gatherings of the church.

On the latter we believe the information is fully available today. On the former [homosexuals in leadership], we would urge Christians acting in the spirit of Christ to show compassion as we AWAIT more complete understandings. Still, the issues are not directly parallel or connected; the one pertains to birth, the other pertains to behavior.

PUBLIC TEACHERS INVOLVED

I led the first such exploratory study December 5, 1987 at the Bohannon home with the elders and Ken Durham, Curt Marshall and Eric Hancock present. By that time, I had studied the subject for six or seven years, at first only to defend the way things were. I had tried hard to make sense of the time-honored traditional view of things, looking only for more contemporary ways to restate old convictions, but in the end, there were just too many things that didn't fit and there were too many inconsistencies in our own practice. All this became clear in our earliest deliberations together, especially as we held up our understandings in the headlights of context and consistency. We quickly realized, for instance, that we could not keep picking and choosing—sometimes from the very same text—what we would understand in a letter-of-the-law way and what we wouldn't.

That first study was followed by another later that winter led by Ken Durham. On March 31, 1991, again at their request, I led the elders at that time—Bruce Evans, John Grady, Ken McAdams and J.G. Pinkerton—in a similar study.

I believe that without exception when men have set out to STUDY issues such as women's roles, musical worship teams or instrumental music they KNOW the answers before the study. The task, then, it to get everyone else on board. Unfortunately, when you decide to TRUMP the clear Biblical teaching and the almost universal scholarly world of HISTORY, you had BETTER be certain that YOU have some spiritual guidance not available to the rest of one's fellowship.

Dale Pauls takes the usual path of trying to trump a CLEAR ASSEMBLY practice by equating it to the holy kiss, veils or "our old view of slavery."

Paul was perfectly clear: therefore the ONLY way to trump the Bible is to declare that it is NOT inspired.

In the words of Charles Spurgeon it is the bottom of ethics when a preacher--in his example--does not believe in the baptismal regeneration of the Church of England but accepts a wage from them. Better that a millstone be hanged on his neck if he does not go out and start his own 'innovative' church from scratch.

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: 1. Concerning those texts traditionally used to restrict or silence women in our worship assemblies, 1 Cor. 14:33-35 and 1 Tim. 2:11-15, which approach to biblical interpretation is most consistent, honest and therefore valid? Do we simply accept them at face value separate from their literary and historical context? Or do we determine to the best of our ability the original intent of the writer, in this case, Paul, by reconstructing as accurately as we can the real-life context using all the linguistic, literary, and historical insights available to us?

Conservatives do not "interpret" the Scriptures based on historical critical methods. In fact, Peter outlaws "private interpretation" which means further expounding. That rejects Jesus' teaching as well as Peter and Paul and accuses them of NOT writing Scripture but "situational theoogy."

The ACU Agenda: first you have to repudiate "that which is written"

Carroll D. Osburn: "There is major disagreement on whether one should use the Bible to undergird doctrines in a "proof-texting way, or whether one should allow doctrine to emerge from understanding texts in their literary and historical contexts. Certainly these differing views of Scripture lie behind differing views of women in the church" (p. 90).

"The Bible is not so much a 'heaven-sent answer book' as a historical book produced within and for a historical community-- yet it serves as Scripture today because people find themselves accountable to it. That is what make its Scripture" (WOMEN IN THE CHURCH: Reclaiming the Ideal, p. 46).

Rubel Shelly and John York: John: Male and female in the Hellenistic world of the first century has both similarities to and differences from our own time. The question is, how do we hear the texts --

specifically the words written by Paul to the Corinthians and his words written to Timothy and the church in Ephesus? Do we assume Paul is issuing unilateral rules that have no specific relationship to the cultural setting of people in Corinth and Ephesus?

Peter said that Jesus left us an EXAMPLE that we should follow. This word means a written record. This was facilited through Eye and Ear witnesses to the teachings and confirming miracles of God in Christ. Peter also said that this is a MARK: if they do not "teach that which has been written and taught" then you can KNOW that they are false teachers.

Therefore, this is an anti-Christian and anti-Biblical view of Scripture.

"...but another step must be taken if the text would actually become Scripture and that is to engage the text in dialogue to ask, 'Now that I understand the meaning of this text for today, can I accept this" (p. 47).

He says,

"Paul's arguments carried weight in his day even though they may not necessarily be convincing by today's standards" (p. 135).

We know that proselytes were baptized in that culture. Because we are not joining the Jewish "church" should that impact our understanding of BAPTISM which is prophesied, taught and practiced based on its PURPOSE. As long as people are sinners and wish to be cleansed by God does the "death of sin" let us change with culture?

Apprentices to a Tentmaker were baptized. That was another cultural thing. Since Electrician Apprentices are no longer ADOPTED, washed, reclothed and given a new name isn't baptism outdated.

Children were washed, clothed and given a new name: Jesus speaks of being "born again" in this context. Because this is not the modern adoption process should that not outlaw baptism FOR the remission of sins.

But, Paul based the restriction on women on the LAW which is the law of nature and the EXAMPLES of women in the Old Testament and pagan culture. Furthermore women never served in priestly or temple services. Was God culturally deprived? Both Eve and Miriam usurped the God-ordained male leadership and brought run on the world or themselves. Miriam was smacked with Leprosy and I believe is one of Paul's prototypical usurping women. God said that when I have a message I will speak to HIM.

All rhetorical speaking, the sOPHISts (serpents), singers, musicians and craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers) are operative of the Babylon Whore in Revelation 18. Their WORK is called SORCERY and the result is that God removes the LAMPS.

All arousal singing using females or perverted males are defined in terms of enchantment or witchcraft.

Carol Wimber, Vineyard (aka New Wineskins) demands that music must bring about a sexual-like climactic experience with God. Because women were the harem of the gods, they used Paul's authority (authentia) as erotic and sexual to bring on what in the land of Miriam was called a visual and auditory orgasm:

"The Egyptian Opis (Apis) and others which Israel worshipped at Mount Sinal were worshipped throughout the area. In preference to all other hymns these choirs generally sang the so-called epiphany hymns, which were intended to invite the gods to appear. Plutarch wrote:

Why do the women of Elis call upon God in song to approach them with the bull's foot? Their song is the following:

Come, Dionysus, Hero,

into the holy temple of Elis,

together with the Graces

come violently into the temple with the bull's foot!

Then they sang twice at the end: "Sacred Bull!" (Quasten, p. 76)

"Choirs of young girls often officiated and they wore garments of the dancers consecrated to the gods."

When you try to RECONSTRUCT what has been regarded as inspired and normative for faith and practice throughout church history, how can I know that YOUR reconstruction is accurate? Both Paul and Peter defined Scripture as being EYE and EAR witnessed and confirmed by the supernatural presence of God in Christ. Peter warned that when people "reconstruct" then they are PROBABLY false teachers.

The task of the evangelist, elder and assembly (Romans 15) is to "teach that which is written" and "not go beyond it." This is what you do if you are a faithful SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE in the words of Thomas Campbell.

That removes the lust and temption to USE WOMEN in and "authority role" which Paul did not base on the hallucination that "women are men with long hair." The word authentia means both EROTIC and MURDEROUS.

It is not possible to have vocal and non-sedentary (not silent) women WITHOUT knowing that you are deliberately exercising SEXUAL AUTHORITY and making "giving heed to the Word" as Paul's unique worship word impossible.

If you are going to RECONSTRUCT then you have to delve in REAL copies of the ancient documents to see why women were excluded from the ekklesia and synagogue. Because Jesus built His ekklesia which is much like the synagogue, is there any historical-critical evidence to support women in EITHER assembly? Why were they excluded? What happened when women invaded the EKKLESIA? Why is this in the NATURE of women and not in the nature of males?

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: With regard to many practices-to cite a few examples, foot washing, speaking in tongues, the holy kiss, and female adornment-clearly we have relied upon establishing original intent. Consider, for instance, how on an issue like tongue speaking-"I would like everyone of you to speak in tongues" (1 Cor. 14:5)-we point quickly to historical context and original intent, noting that Paul was addressing the specific circumstances of his day. The truth is that sound biblical interpretation has always relied upon the best knowledge of historical context available. Perhaps the real question occurs when we break from our usual pattern and on a particular issue downplay context and original intent: when we do this, what is really motivating us?

All who have been "washed with water into the Word or School of Christ" are the ekklesia. Their spirits have been translated into a heavenly kingdom using the UMBRELLUM word. That means that the individual disciples are in a SAFE HOUSE where the Scribes (liars) and Pharisees, hypocrites meaning speakers, singers and instrument player" cannot get close enough to pick our pocket.

By direct command, all of the examples and historical evidence we gather or assemble ONE TIME EACH week. We Read and Discus the Word. The Lord's Supper preaches the DEATH of Jesus which forces all disciples into SILENCE while the word is READ so that we understand it and take it home to meditate all week.

You can kiss, hug and wash feed if someone wants to get into your private property but if you grasp that Jesus has only a SCHOOL where He teaches you don't need a command to have a rest room and toilet tissue.

Peter outlawed private interpretation which was further expounding. The facts of the Bible were claimed to be written by eye and ear witnesses. This was a mark against anyone who would change it. We are bound to READ and DIALOG but the Bible is not subject to new models based on PRIVATE views of what THEIR CULTURE thinks that it should mean. No two "scholars" would come up with the same conclusion.

If someone visits Dale Pauls' PRIVATE HOUSE and he has been walking in the dust all day then the LAW is still in effect. The fact is that servants brought water and did not do the washing. Foot washing was never a practice for the EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE assembly as was not eating and drinking or making music or preaching. Jesus assigned the foot washing to the apostles or anyone else who presumes to have apostolic authority. However, this is one of the usual dodges. For instance, "God didn't command toilet tissue." Perhaps Dale Pauls is sinning since he is waged as a "minister." The rest of us have no need to do it.

If foot washing had any HISTORICAL precedent as a religious activity conected to the assembly and NOT washing feet brought DISCORD into a peaceable church of Christ then the preacher should NOT do it.

The Holy Kiss thingy? I am surprised at the false examples used as counterfeits to hide the CLEAR cause of sowing massive discord and doing damage to the males already female dominated from cradle to the grave. There is NOT modern rule against the holy kiss but Paul NARROWLY defined away all of those DIVERSITIES in Romans 14 so he could RULE IN the definition of the assembly. When Paul uses the word assembly or gathering it is almost always a form of the word SYNAGOGUE. They used ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to speak THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN as the only way to educate, glorify god and KEEP THE UNITY.

If the holy kiss had any HISTORICAL precedent as a religious activity conected to the assembly and NOT kissing (touching ckeeks) brought DISCORD into a peaceable church of Christ then the preacher should NOT do it.

Female Adornment: Paul outlawed "wearing of garments" so we should go NAKED? No, too deep for now but the garments were the himation or "vestures" often worn by the always-perverted singers and instrumentalists. This would be like a stole and like David's ephod or apron SHOULD NOT be worn by itself.

How women dressed was always a problem in the assembly and Christian women were noted for their modesty. Wearing of vestures or decorative shawl was a problem if the women claimed ecclesiastical authority.

If giving women the "virtual" vesture of the deacon or elder or any sign of authority sows discord then the preacher should not do it. Better get fitted for a millstone.

See Isaiah 3 below which informed the other Paul and the connection between dress and usurping women.

Speaking in tongues: The Greeks knew 5 languages and 70 "tongues" or minor dialects. Most of the Corinthians were transients and wanted to use their NATIVE DIALECT which was comfortable and always held to make a better contact with the Gods.

Only the uncovered women prophesiers of 1 Cor 11:5 sang and spoke in gibberish induced by wine or music: they were called MAD WOMEN.

"There was in Corinth, then, a significant monument memorializing the savagery of female Bacchus worshippers.  Nor was such a feminine ferocity confined to Pentheus alone.  Women under the inspiration of Bacchus were said to have torn Orpheus limb from limb; and Alexander the Great was supposed to have incorporated a group of these maenads (mad women) into his army in his attempt to conquer India.  There was also a tradition that women during the course of the worship tore apart young animals and ate them raw, warm and bleeding, thereby receiving within themselves the life of the god.  In a 1976 address to the Mystery Religions Division of the Society of Biblical Literature, Ross Kraemer argued that there is evidence that women participated in a second level of initiation in Bacchic worship that was not available to men.  Among Dionysiac worshippers, writes Livy in his History of Rome, 'the majority are women' (XXXIX.xv)

While women were famed for their wildness in the Bacchic cult and in certain other mystery cults, other aspects of their worship were more traditional.  Of special importance to the study of the situation Paul addresses is the concept of clamor, noisy outbursts of religious pandemonium. 

Strabo (first century) explains how popular writers describe the phenomenon:

They represent them, one and all, as a kind of inspired people and as subject to Bacchic frenzy, and, in the guise of minister, as inspiring terror at the celebration of the sacred rites by means of war-dances accompanied by uproar and noise and cymbals and drums and also by flute and outcry . . . (Georg., X, 3:7)

The 'sounding gong and tinkling cymbal' used in such worship are mentioned in a derogatory sense in 1 Corinthians 13:1; but the religious outcry itself is dealt with more directly.  It is essential that we understand that much of the shouting involved in the rite was the specific function of women.  Euripides describes the advent of Dionysiac religion to Thebes thus:  'This city, first in Hellas, now shrills and echoes to my women's cries, their ecstasy of joy' (Bacchae, 11, 20-24) 

The word used here for 'cry' is olulugia, defined by the Etymologicum Magnum as 'the sound which women make to exult in worship' and by E.R. Dodds as 'the women's ritual cry of triumph or thanksgiving'. 

Pausanias tells of 'the mountain they say was called Eva from the Bacchic cry 'Evoe' which Dionysus and his attendant women first uttered there' (Descr. of Greece, IV, xxxi) 

Menander also demonstrates women's role in worship: 'We were offering sacrifice five times a day, and seven serving women were beating cymbals around us while the rest of the women pitched high the chant (olulugia)' (Fragment 326). 

Women were expected, then, to provide certain types of sound-effects; and some of these effects seem to have been limited to feminine ministrants.

That is where in the ASSEMBLY Paul absolute outlaws speaking, praying or singing women. Because the command was to "speak that which is written" that excluded male rhetoricians or "sermonizers" or "versifiers" as well.

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: So what is the principle of selectivity we have used to justify not washing one another's feet, not greeting with a holy kiss, not laying on hands, women not wearing veils, women disregarding injunctions against braided hair or expensive clothes, while still insisting women be silent in our public worship? And why?

Paul wants the men AND women to be quite so that We might all be saved or SAFE and come to a knowledge of the truth. Anything which attracts our attention diminishes the SINGULAR ROLE of learning and mutually confessing the Word. To make such a suggestion is to prove that people cannot define assembly or worship.

Rather than leapfrogging 2,000 years of history which has pretty well worked that out, perhaps the HISTORICAL EVIDENCE would distinguish between the ESSENTIALS and the ACCEPTED DIVERSITIES.

The elders as the sole PASTOR-TEACHERS of the early congregations are listed with GIFTED males (only) in Ephesians 4. It is clear that they had the authority to teach and lay hands when sending out Timothy. I have no doubt that Timothy, too, had a better knowledge than most. For instance, he would need the patience of Job to obey Paul who commanded him to "give attendance to the public reading of the Word" and then, just as in the synagogue, exhort people to obey what had been read and explain any doctrinal content. Timothy didn't preach "in church" and never had a praise team or the cursed pyramidal ministry system imposed when the elders FIRED God and hired a "dominant pastor" or king.

If anyone thinks they have the power to HEAL anyone then by all means they should lay their hands on them. However, this is often practiced and I am not aware of the deliberate sowing of discord when the elders practice it.

IF the custom is wearing a veil or hair lengths then women should conform. However, as we will see from Paul's RESOURCE in Isaiah 3 wearing veils as ornaments was condemned.

Veils were to protect the women from exactly the same GAZE which Dale Pauls is proposing for uncovered, preside-over and non-sedentary women. It is impossible and everyone knows it for a women to expose herself without stirring up the LUST the veil intended to quiet down. If women OBEY the direct command and remain sedentary then the need for the veil is less. I propose that the only way Dale can USE women in the assembly without creating AUTHENTIA or sexual feelins is to force her to wear a burka.

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: On what basis can we justify appealing to original intent on so many other matters and largely disregarding original intent for 1 Cor. 14:33-35 and 1 Tim. 2:11-15?

Easy: the role of women is SPECIFICIALLY outlawed for the ASSEMBLY while the others were NOT permitted. In Romans 14 Paul OUTLAWS disputing or dialoging the "diversities" so that in Romans 15 he defined the SYNAGOGUE where both males and females were "historically" involved in 'speaking that which is written using ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH" as the way to edify, glorify God and keep the unity.

Paul also outlawed MALES unless they had a revelation from God and another "prophet" to prove that they were not lying. Because not a single one in Corinth had a single gift Paul is using IRONY to mock them. In any case, even if she thinks she is INSPIRED Paul insists that she remain silent. And Paul taught that in all of the churches. He further said that if they needed further instructions then HE would write them another letter.

Good for us that Paul was not a freak but a Bible Scholar.

Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Isa 3:10

Woe unto the wicked it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him. Isa 3:11

Does Dale suggest that Isaiah who spoke for God was ALSO a culture-creature and therefore NOT fit to inform Paul who informed us?

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. Isa 3:12

Nagas (h5065) naw-gas'; a prim. root; to drive (an animal, a workman, a debtor, an army); by impl. to tax, harass, tyrannize: - distress, driver, exact (-or), oppress (-or), * raiser of taxes, taskmaster.

And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors. Is.14:2

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! Is.14:4

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Is.53:7

Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. Is.58:3

Nagash (h5066) naw-gash'; a prim. root; to be or come (causat. bring) near (for any purpose); euphem. to lie with a woman; as an enemy, to attack; relig. to worship; causat. to present; fig. to adduce an argument; by reversal, to stand back: - (make to) approach (nigh), bring (forth, hither, near), (cause to) come (hither, near, nigh), give place, go hard (up), (be, draw, go) near (nigh), offer, overtake, present, put, stand.

Naga (h5060) naw-gah'; a prim. root; prop. to touch, i. e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by impl. to reach (fig. to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.): - beat, (* be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.

Nagan (h5059) naw-gan'; a prim. root; prop. to thrum, i. e. beat a tune with the fingers; espec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (gen.) to make music: - player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play (-er, -ing..

Jesus CAST OUT the women minstrels as one EJECTS DUNG. Lucifer brought wind, string and percussion instruments with HER (mostly) into the garden of Eden. Therefore, Lucifer (Zoe) is the musical WOMAN of Revelation 18 also

Is.23:16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.

Eze.33:32 And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not.

The Lord standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people. Isa 3:13

The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses. Isa 3:14

Isaiah 5 and Amos 5 will connect this to the WOMEN who dominated men and the religious festivals were devoted to wine, women and music so that the people were IGNORANT and went into captivity.

What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord God of hosts. Isa 3:15

Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Isa 3:16

Ezekiel 13 particularly notes the female prophets for pay.

"'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my wrath I will unleash a violent wind (spirit), and in my anger hailstones and torrents of rain will fall with destructive fury. Ezek 13:13

"Now, son of man, set your face against the daughters of your people who prophesy (sing and play instruments) out of their own imagination. Prophesy against them Ezek 13:17

and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the women who sew magic charms on all their wrists and make veils of various lengths for their heads in order to ensnare people. Will you ensnare the lives of my people but preserve your own? Ezek 13:18

Female teachers or preachers are such prophesiers.

In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, Isa 3:18

The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, Isa 3:19
The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, Isa 3:20
The rings, and nose jewels, Isa 3:21
The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, Isa 3:22
The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails. Isa 3:23

Sure, almost no one is CONVERTED by preaching which is the least effective way of teaching known to the human race?

LIKEWISE, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 1Pe 3:1

While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 1Pe 3:2

Whose adorning (worldly decoration) let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting (to enchant often with music) the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel (official robes or vesture) ; 1Pe 3:3

But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 1 Peter 3:4

And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty. Isa 3:24

Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war. Isa 3:25

And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground. Isa 3:26

That would outlaw women of performance preaching claiming to have the supernatural power to discern what Paul's REAL intention would have been IF Paul had lived in OUR superior world.

If any man speak,
..........let him speak as the oracles of God;
if any man minister,
.......... let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:

that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 1Pe.4:11

Speaking is not a TALENT THINGY: If anyone speaks then speaking as the oracle of God meant a STYLE of speaking as well as the content. The SPEAK word for the ekklesia meant "in a whisper or conversational tone." In Romans 15 Paul commanded one to another using "that which is written" or "Scripture." This produces LEARNING or edification, produces comfort of the SCRIPTURES and reduces the confusion when women usually lead you into "musical" performances.

Johannes Quasten. In Music and Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, beginning on page 41:

"Philodemus considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration of the gods while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration. Again, Philodemus held as self deceptive the view that music mediated religious ecstasy.

He saw the entire condition induced by the noise of cymbals (hand clapping or tabering) and tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit.

He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and effeminate men fell into this folly.

Accordingly, nothing of value could be attributed to music; it was no more than a slave of the sensation of pleasure, which satisfied much in the same way that food and drink did.

"Women and girls from the different ranks of society were proud to enter the service of the gods as singers and musicians. The understanding of this service was universal:these singers constituted the 'harem of the gods'." (End of Quasten)

Because there were NO prophets in Corinth Paul defines it as TEACHING DOCTRINE. Therefore, if you THINK you have a Scriptural passage that fits then Paul seems to outlaw a dominant Paster preacher either mail or female.

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1 Cor. 14:31

And the spirits of the PROPHETS are subject to the PROPHETS 1 Cor. 14:32

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace,

as in ALL CHURCHES of the saints. 1 Cor. 14:33

Let your WOMEN keep SILENCE in the churches: for it is NOT PERMITTED unto them to SPEAK; but they are COMMANDED to be UNDER OBEDIENCE, as also saith the law. 1 Cor. 14:34

And if they will LEARN any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a SHAME for WOMAN to speak IN THE CHURCH. 1 Cor. 14:35

Silence is:

Esuchia (g2271) hay-soo-khee'-ah; fem. of 2272; (as noun) stillness, i.e. desistance from bustle or language: - quietness, silence.

(And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) Ac.22:2

And yes this prohibits ALL speaking or non-sedentary roles:

Esuchios (g2272) hay-soo'-khee-os; a prol. form of a comp. prob. of a der. of the base of 1476 and perh. 2192; prop. keeping one's seat (sedentary), i.e. (by impl.) still (undisturbed, undisturbing): - peaceable, quiet.

That is not because they are INFERIOR but because they CANNOT be vocal in the 'random harangue' sense or be NON SEDENTARY without stirring up lust.

Don't follow these LEGALISTS who say "women CAN preach IF she uses a TUNE." Or, IF she is part of a group then she violates ALL of the above passage.

There is NO HISTORY which can TRUMP what Paul has said. And he cannot be violated without deciding that Paul was NOT guided into all truth just like all of the other apostles.

That means that DALE trumps the Holy Spirit. However, you may want to know what Paul the supposed ignorant fella knew that preachers never read in Isaiah 3.

1Ti.2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Didasko (g1321) did-as'-ko; a prol. (caus.) form of a prim. verb dao, (to learn); to teach (in the same broad application): - teach

Re.2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

1Ti.3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: When we pick and choose sometimes from within the same passage (e.g. 1 Tim. 2:9-15) those matters to which we will apply the letter of the law (while disregarding historical context) and those to which we will not, we are not being objective, reasonable, or consistent. We here in Stamford and in many other places are trying to find a consistent principle of interpretation so that we will not simply be picking and choosing on the basis of personal whim, masculine bias, or cultural tradition.

Paul never commands arousal singing and in fact condemns it. Yet, our PRE DISPOSITION to find evidence sees all kinds of CULTURAL reasons when music was always the mark of those who told God to shut up.

The Historical Critical method knows for certain that SINGING as an act of worship was added in ad 373 along with non-Biblical songs.

Paul never commanded preaching as an ACT of worship and this was one of the first heresies when preachers quit teaching the word as it HAS BEEN taught.

If you use CULTURE to hire a performance preacher then Paul absolutely proves that it is an UNFUNDED job. There is no ACT called taking up the collection so how could women be authorized to DO it.

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: 2. Since we would no longer use the teaching "Slaves, obey your earthly " (Eph. 6:5-9; Col. 3:22-41; Titus 2:9-10) to defend slavery, why would we continue to use 1 Cor 14:33-35 or 1 Tim. 2:9-15 to silence women's voices in our worship assemblies?

A "minister" is a servant of those who feed him: he has no authority to become master and decide whom HE will bring into the household and put on the dole. Jesus was a servant and the MIND or SPIRIT of Christ is to lay aside any glory or majesty and take on the form of a SLAVE.

G1401 doulos doo'-los From G1210 ; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency):--bond (-man), servant.

PAUL, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:1

However, the answer again is simple: being or not being a slave had nothing to do with the assembly. Remember, that the ekklesia was a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and it had no mandate as a social service organization. It mattered not that slave could speak as well as the master in a TRUE church of Christ.

Why does Dale Pauls SILENCE most of the males unless they conform? My opinion based on the fact that RELIGION is fueled by females and disenfranchised males, is that "pastor persons" want more women in leadership because he thinks they are easier to manage.

However, we remind you, that Paul defines what CANNOT BE done in the church and still be A church of Christ: women CANNOT fulfil the prophesy of Isaiah 3 because it is THE LAW or THE NATURE of women or effeminate males to lead you into ceremonial legalism.

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: The New Testament teaching on slavery gives us a real-life example of what early Christians did with another dominant social pattern of those times. If the church then had pressed the teaching of Gal. 3:28 and Philemon as well as its more general message of liberation to its full conclusion, it would have been undermining the economic foundation of the Roman world. Slavery was a constant-a given-in the ancient world. Life would have been unimaginable without it. If the church then had energetically pressed this matter, it would have been quickly perceived as being dangerously subversive and a threat to the basic fabric of society.

People were not slaves in the church or because of Jesus and His commands for the assembly as a "school of the Bible." Therefore, the comparison is to poison the well because there is no connection. People were still slaves when females gained control of the Greek ekklesia and forced the males to be silent.

Many would be slaves or dead: being a slave was a better option. Cyrus was told how to "neutralize" the masses of warriors who were not enslaved:

He said to make them wear robes, sing and play the cithera and soon they would be turned into women.

Written by the Church of Christ about the year 200 ad

UPON WHICH DAYS SERVANTS ARE NOT TO WORK.

XXXIII. I Peter and Paul do make the following constitutions. Let the slaves work five days;

but on the Sabbath-day and the Lord's day let them have leisure to go to church for instruction in piety.

We have said that the Sabbath is on account of the creation,
and the Lord's day of the resurrection.

They go on to list may other days of rest for slaves or servants.

It may also be that Philemon had endentured himself and was UNDER CONTRACT.

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: And it would have distracted almost everyone from its primary gospel message. The gospel would have been buried beneath layers of economic fear and conflict. Today, in our understanding of those passages that urge slaves to obey their masters (1 Cor. 7:17-24; Eph. 6:5-9; Col. 3:22-4:1; Titus 9-10; Philemon), we appeal to context and original intent. We do not agree with those who in the early nineteenth century used these passages to defend slavery as a permanent God-ordained institution. And today we see in the biblical teaching on slavery an example of the necessary distinction between what the New Testament says about new life in Christ (Gal. 3:28) and the actual degree of loving implementation possible in the first century. Might not this also be true for gender issues?

However, this was NOT the prevailing view of women in religionism. In fact most pagan temples were manned by prophetesses and priestesses. They spoke, sang, and played instruments in public assemblies. They even went to the back rooms as temple prostitutes--the highest form of religious experience.

Johannes Quasten. In Music and Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, beginning on page 41:

"Philodemus considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration of the gods while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration. Again, Philodemus held as self deceptive the view that music mediated religious ecstasy.

He saw the entire condition induced by the noise of cymbals (hand clapping or tabering) and tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit.

He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and effeminate men fell into this folly.

Accordingly, nothing of value could be attributed to music; it was no more than a slave of the sensation of pleasure, which satisfied much in the same way that food and drink did.

"Women and girls from the different ranks of society were proud to enter the service of the gods as singers and musicians. The understanding of this service was universal:these singers constituted the 'harem of the gods'." (Johannes Quasten. In Music and Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, beginning on page 41:)

The two basic Greek religious cults--one devoted to Apollo, the other to Dionysus--became the prototypes for the two aesthetic poles, classical and romantic, that have contended throughout Western cultural history.

The Apollonians were characterized by objectivity of expression, simplicity, and clarity, and their favoured instrument was the kithara, a type of lyre.

The Dionysians, on the other hand, preferred the reed-blown aulos and were identified by subjectivity, emotional abandon, and sensuality. (See Greek music, Apollo, Dionysus.)

Dionysus was the New Wineskin god.

As Dionysus apparently represented the sap, juice, or lifeblood element in nature, lavish festal orgia (rites) in his honour were widely instituted. These Dionysia (Bacchanalia,)

quickly won converts among the women in the post-Mycenaean world.
The men, however, met it with hostility.

As the uncovered women prophesiers in 1 Corinthians 11 were the predominant promoters of the present neo-pagan religions, there is no hint in Corinth or the other churches that CULTURE stiffled them. On the contrary:

"And Euripides does likewise, in his Bacchae, citing the Lydian usages at the same time with those of Phrygia, because of their similarity:

But ye who left Mt. Tmolus (Sardis was on this mt.), fortress of Lydia,
revel-band of mine, women whom I brought from the land of barbarians as my assistants and travelling companions,

There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 1 Corinthians 14:10

Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 1 Corinthians 14:11

uplift the tambourines native to Phrygian cities, inventions of mine and mother Rhea. (ZOE)

And again, happy he who, blest man, initiated in the mystic rites, is pure in his life, . . . who, preserving the righteous orgies of the great mother Cybele, and brandishing the thyrsus on high, and wreathed with ivy, doth worship Dionysus.

Come, ye Bacchae, come, ye Bacchae, bringing down (double entendre) Bromius, (boisterous one) god the child of god, out of the Phrygian mountains into the broad highways of Greece.

There would have been NOTHING in Paul's background--being trained by women--which would have made him a "male chauvinist pig." Therefore, Paul appeals to the NATURE of Eve and the LAW which has many sad examples of women leading in religion with no hint of males trying to stiffle them.

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: 3. To what extent would a woman's public participation in Sunday morning worship be an authority role? And how does our understanding of this square with Jesus' teaching on leadership and authority?

I wonder how we got that SUNDAY MORNING WORSHIP concept? Jesus didn't teach it and Paul virtually outlawed the common meaning of threskia (invented by Orpheus and the Lesbian women) in a musical, ceremonial ritual sense. Jesus founded the ekklesia or synagogue and it had no real preaching and never had "a praise service." In fact, the synagogue as Qahal existed as the "church in the wilderness" and loud instruments or "making a joyful noise before the Lord was outlawed" (Num 10:7). They were to hold a Holy Confocation which meant to READ or REHEARSE the Word of God.

In the early church of Christ (called universal) a Bishop had to be able to RECITE the whole of the book of Psalms because THAT was what Paul commanded as the "singing" practice which was NOT musical.

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: Do men-any men at all-feel, for instance, t
        hat another man "leading" prayer or reading scripture
        is really exercising authority over them?
Is it, in fact, an authority role for anyone to pass collection or communion trays (with or without praying beforehand), offer a prayer, lead a song, make a Sunday morning announcement, or read scripture? In what sense would a woman doing any of these things be "usurping authority" over anyone? And how do these concerns fit in with Jesus' teaching that the one who would become great must be a servant and the one who would be first must be servant of all (Matt. 20:20-28; Mark 10:41-45; Luke 22:24-27; John 13:1-17)?

We made it clear above that the word for authority does not mean COMMAND AUTHORITY: the word is AUTHENTIA meaning both erotic and murderous.

The task of the evangelist, elder and assembly (Romans 15) is to "teach that which is written" and "not go beyond it." This is what you do if you are a faithful SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE in the words of Thomas Campbell.

That removes the lust and temption to USE WOMEN in and "authority role" which Paul did not base on the hallucination that "women are men with long hair." The word authentia means both EROTIC and MURDEROUS.

It is not possible to have vocal and non-sedentary (not silent) women WITHOUT knowing that you are deliberately exercising SEXUAL AUTHORITY and making "giving heed to the Word" as Paul's unique worship word impossible.

Esuchia (g2271) hay-soo-khee'-ah; fem. of 2272; (as noun) stillness, i.e. desistance from bustle or language: - quietness, silence.

(And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) Ac.22:2

And yes this prohibits ALL speaking or non-sedentary roles:

Esuchios (g2272) hay-soo'-khee-os; a prol. form of a comp. prob. of a der. of the base of 1476 and perh. 2192; prop. keeping one's seat (sedentary), i.e. (by impl.) still (undisturbed, undisturbing): - peaceable, quiet.

That is because the OUTLAWED authority is AUTHENTIA which means erotic and murderous: you cannot have show girls in church without intending to take the eyes off Christ and His Word.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1 Tim 2:13

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1 Tim 2:14

Consistent with the example of Eve who used the word TOUCH and proved that this was a sexual temptation as Paul agrees, women ARE PERMITTED to attend the ekklesia from which they were EXCLUDED in the secular sense. However, this is on condition that their conduct and dress is godly. And then, the warning is that they ARE NOT PERMITTED to presume on God's liberty.

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Co. 11:2

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Co.11:3

Ecapatao (g1818) ex-ap-at-ah'-o; from 1537 and 538; to seduce wholly: - beguile, deceive.

Eve being seduced by the serpent which was a Musical Enchanter preached ANOTHER COMMANDMENT and caused the fall: thus saith the law and ALL of the Old Testament and secular experience:

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2Co. 11:4

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. 1 Tim 2:15

Dale Pauls, Stamford church of Christ: To what extent have we let secular notions of hierarchy, power, and domination shape our perceptions of Christian service in worship?

NOTE: There was a time, several centuries ago, when women in certain churches were not allowed to sing in public assemblies. This of course complies with the strict construction of "remaining silent in the churches" (1 Cor. 14:34) but it seems a bizarre misapplication today.

I doubt that very much! I would love to see the history of that in the churches of Christ or any group I have ever heard. Catholics were excepted because everyone but the clergy precenter was silent except some amens. The Precenter is said to be "the first heresy largely pervading the church."

The Catholics neve sang CONGREGATIONALLY with INSTRUMENTAL ACCOMPANIMENT. The organ only played preludes, interludes and recessionals. The precenter used the organ more like a pitch pipe.

We have recorded history from very early that both males and females sang: in fact, the direct command of Paul for a FAITHFUL assembly commands that we all speak WITH ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using "that which is written" or Scripture. I am certain that no singy hand waving type stood UP FRONT. Rather, the presiding elder spoke part of a Psalm and everyone repeated it. This continued until they could unison "speak" the whole Biblical passage.

Singing was added in the year 373.

4. Is it really reasonable to suppose that the traditional view of female subordination is a guaranteed "safe position"?

If Dale Pauls knows for a lead pipe certainty that any preside over or speaking over female is going to automatically create lust through AUTHORITY or AUTHENTIA is it ok to create lust just so the women can do what the males usually do with no Biblical authority.

Does he know that GROWTH always resulted from FERTILITY acts and having female singers or musicians PERFORM had no other purpose but to create the lust of the eye along with the lust of the ear. Unless the female is ungodly ugly males are going to be measuring her up. Does he want HIS wife or HIS daughters to be the object of lust in the name of equality in religionism?

It is sometimes felt that if we hold to positions traditionally held, we are at least doing the "safe" thing in the eyes of God. But if we are unnecessarily (just for the sake of our tradition) holding to a position that now hinders the gospel of Christ (1 Cor. 9:12, 19-23), if by unnecessarily insisting on exclusively male leadership in the church we are keeping people from seeing God's good news and thereby shutting the kingdom of heaven in their faces (Matt. 23:13), would we not then be answerable to God for doing what we consider to be the safe thing?

Furthermore, if by holding to traditional positions, we prevent women from exercising their God-given talents, might we not also be held accountable for that? One cannot overemphasize the enormous consequences of women today-for the very first time in history-being generally as educated as men and as trained for responsible leadership in society. The barriers that once kept them from leadership roles are now gone-except in certain churches for an hour or two a week. If the implications of this are still not clear to us, they will be to our daughters and our sons. But there are already in many congregations women who are more educated, more knowledgeable in Scripture, and more gifted as adult teachers than most of the men. Sometimes a woman may be more educated, knowledgeable and gifted than all the men.

If men refuse to learn from such women purely on the basis of gender, are we not collectively burying their talents-gifts given them by God-at considerable loss to us all? Moreover, what realistically do we expect women to do with such gifts? And realistically how do we expect our daughters (and the men who will marry and love them) to respond to such a situation? If we hold to traditional positions, we will be asking of this generation of women what has never been asked of any generation before: that they accept restrictive and subordinate roles although they now have education and training for leadership equivalent to men's. Have we fully considered what we are asking of them? Have we anticipated the probable consequences? If we are unnecessarily holding to such a position, would we not be shutting the kingdom of heaven in people's faces? Is this really a "safe position" practically, spiritually, or biblically?

And it's important to recognize that this concern is scriptural as well as practical. It is solidly anchored in both the teaching and model of Paul (1 Cor. 9:19-23; Rom. 12:17; 1 Tim. 3:7; 5:14; 6:1; Titus 2:5,8,10). It is of course true that cardinal Christian doctrines should not be determined by the negative responses of secular people. However, with regard to our teaching on immersion or the Lord's Supper, for instance, no one-however strongly they may disagree with us-suggests that our positions are in any way immoral. (Nor could they really; immersion and the Lord's Supper illuminate the gospel and still very much fulfill the original intent of the inspired writers of Scripture). On the other hand, it is exactly this charge of immorality that traditional churches today must endure rightly or wrongly on the issue of female subordination. People turn to the church to find God, and find themselves more ethical and humane than the church. This is also the same charge that the church faced on slavery in the nineteenth century (when many traditionalists fell back on "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters" drawn from passages such as 1 Peter 2:18; Eph. 6:5-8; Col. 3:22-4:1; and Titus 2:9-10 to argue for the eternal legitimacy of human slavery). And certainly if the church in history had always conducted itself so as to be safe-as we understand safety today-we would still be a pro-slavery church. And what would be safe about that?

5. Why is it that women still suffer from wrongs like rape, domestic violence, verbal abuse, and various forms of gender condescension and disrespect?

What is the responsibility of the church on these matters when men who are not avowed Christians draw on the church's authority to claim a God-given right to dominate and thereby abuse women? And how might churches best contribute to solutions-and make sure that they are not contributing to the problem? How do we so conduct ourselves as a church that a man-any man-comes to respect a woman-any woman-as naturally and as instinctively as he does a man? In many ways, this last question may be the most important question. And our answer to it will do much to determine whether in real life, in our time and place, there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:28).

6. What does it mean-in the sight of God-to be a man or to be a woman?

Is it reasonable to assume that the sexual distinctiveness evident in our bodies is restricted to our bodies and does not extend at all into our souls? Given that gender distinctiveness exists, can the case be made for at least certain gender-distinctive roles that either males or females more naturally fill? If this case could be made, would it not follow that society suffers when it ignores this distinctiveness? Before we dismantle all the gender expectations of the past, have we responsibly considered what constructive social functions they once performed and how those functions will be managed in the future? Still, if gender distinctiveness argues for certain gender-distinctive roles, aren't those roles best understood as norms still subject to individual aptitude and immediate context rather than rigid restrictions that allow no exceptions? Wouldn't this be a matter, like so many others, when it is best to understand with the apostle Paul that we are "not under law, but under grace" (Rom 6:14; 7:6)?

Moreover, is it not the very gender distinctiveness of women-that usually they are more gently nurturing-that makes it so spiritually important that their voices be heard by men and women in our gatherings of believers? If men and women often speak with different voices doesn't this suggest the necessity of both men's and women's voices being heard in churches where life's most sacred issues are addressed?

7. By fully opening our gatherings to women's voices, are we in any real way diminishing masculinity? Could we be enriching it?

Take, for instance, the matter of spiritual leadership. What is it in any of these considerations that detracts from teaching and training men to lead, to take initiative, to define agendas, and to struggle courageously for their fulfillment? Does it really require women to assume or play subordinate roles (roles that are often artificial to them and to our culture) in order for men to succeed at leadership?

Work in progress

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