Ezekiel 33:30 Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying,
Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD.
Ezekiel 33:31 And they come unto thee
AS the people cometh,
and they sit before thee AS my people,
and they hear thy words, but they will not do them:
for with their mouth they shew much love,
but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Ezekiel 33:32 And, lo, thou art unto them [nothing mor than]
as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice,
and can play well on an instrument:
for they hear thy words, but they do them not.
Ezekiel 33:33 And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.
That is why the very clear command is:
To SPEAK that which is written for our learning
Singing and Psallo are IN the heart meaning SILENT.
Otherwise, Christ says that you are just merchants and have no intention of obeying Christ.
Jay Guin: Q: Can you think of anything that we currently do or practice in the churches of Christ that would also fit these, like the kitchen or gym. I have gotten to the point where I don’t even bring up arguments when I disagree with things being taught, they are standard ‘doctrine.’
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I do not like to discuss a lot of these things unless I’m really loaded for the task.
Let’s try a couple of similar arguments on for size. We were discussing the one-cup issue in my class last week.
1. There is no command for multiple cups. Nor is there an example. We do have examples of a single cup.
The argument is silly because we KNOW that all noise is excluded from the assembly: women are to be silent so that "we may all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." The purpose was not the container but the command to show forth or preach the death of Christ. If you remember that Jesus paid it all to be the ONLY Teacher then you will gladly sit down and shut up and hear the word PREACHED by being READ.
(Mat 26:27-28) Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Well, the cup was DIVIDED before the bread:(1 Cor 11:28) A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
Luke 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said,People carried their own drinking cup, thank you very much. Of the original container we have images which show a pitcher. The OBJECT is to show forth the death. The multiple cup along with the sermonizers were added in commercial interest like song books.
Take this, and divide it among yourselves
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Jay Guin:“Cup” is quite plainly singular everywhere it’s used in reference to the communion (in parallel to the argument that “elders” is always plural!)
True, Jesus took the singular CUP and passed it around to be DIVIDED. What's the point? The point is that people don't care what Scripture says.
4. As this article plainly shows, the controversy brought division to numerous churches. And these divisions have not yet been healed.
Now, having seen how such arguments fail, let’s look at some additional facts. (A much more comprehensive consideration of the issue may be found under Instrumental Music.)
Jay Guin: 1. Is there really no command in scripture? No example?
Consider that the
Jerusalem church met in the temple courts daily,
and they had instrumental music and choirs.
Rather an odd choice, isn’t it,
if God wanted nothing to do with instrumental music after Pentecost?God did not command the King, Kingdom, Temple, Animal Slaughter or the instrumental NOISE which was called EXORCISM. When you blow 120 not commanded ram's horns making ONE NOTE or ONE SOUND we grown up do not call that INSTRUMENTAL. Much less do we ADD a congregation which sings TWILA PARIS.\
There is no recorded example of any kind of instrumental music in the choirs as worship. Rather, the Levites performed as soothsayers-sorcerers to make a great crashing noise inside the INNTER COURT. They assisted the Slaughter Priests who were called HERETICS because they "lifted the lambs up to cut their throats." The levite Soothsayers made instrumental noise derived from mystery which means "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter."
The Temple was called HEROD'S TEMPLE and the priests got the job as highest bidders. The godly youth had fled Jerusalem because the musical performers were made male prostitutes and singers INSIDE Herod's Temple.
According to the Law of the Monarchy the godly people were signalled to be outside the gates during the horrors of animal sacrifices which God did not command.
The Believers, Gentiles etal met in the OUTER court or Solomon's Porch as the local hot spot. Jesus and the disciples taught in the courts because THAT'S WHERE THE PEOPLE WERE.
Jay Guin: 2. Instrumental music was introduced in the New Testament church at Pentecost.
FALSE: The Spirit OF Christ in Jeremiah calls that BLASPHEMY: despising the Word of God. They didn't make music: they made NOISE intending to drive everyone into mortal fear for their lives. Instrumental noise IN FACT is used to create the "laded burden" or music which creates "spiritual anxiety through religious rituals."
Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.I wonder how Jay Guin got Approved Instrumental Music in there.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly
in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship,
and in breaking of bread [eating], and in prayers.
Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul:
and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Jesus said that doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge: Jay wants you to believe that the believers worshipped with instrumental music in the temple.
Later in the story: Pentecost would be the First Day of the Week. Therefore, there would be no Jewish "worship services on the First Day."
AFTER THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK AND NOT ON PENTECOST:
Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple [Outer Court], and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Jay Guin: And consider the arguments made in this post from a while back. I’ll not repeat them here, but there’s much more authority for instrumental music than we sometimes pretend.
If you say that something is a fact and it is not a fact that is called Blaspheming the Holy Spirit OF Christ. Christ defined the future REST both inclusively and exclusively and outlawed seeking your own pleasure or speaking your own words.
Jay Guin: Luther permitted instrumental music, which led to the grandeur of Bach — some of the greatest worship music ever composed. The Messiah came from the pen of Handel, thanks to the fact he wasn’t working in a Calvinistic nation — as the Calvinists rejected instrumental music in worship.
Luther's songs were NOT used in the assembly. Luther specificially understands Romans 15 to prohibit all of the hypocritic arts and crafts
For instance, the distracted world attempts to serve God by setting apart houses, churches, cloisters;
vestures, gold-trimmed, silk and [50] every other kind; silver vessels and images; bells and organs, candles and lamps; the money for which expense should have been appropriated to the poor if the object was to make an offering to God.Further, it keeps up a muttering and wailing in the churches day and night.
But true praise and honor of God, a service that cannot be confined to place or person,is quietly ignored the world over.The pretenses of priests and monks about their system of exercises
being service to the Lord, are false and delusive.53. Service to God is praise of him. It must be free and voluntary, at table, in the chamber, cellar, garret, in house or field, in all places, with all persons, at all times. Whosoever teaches otherwise is no less guilty of falsehood than the Pope and the devil himself.
But how shall there be with us honor and praise of God, true service to him, when we neither love him nor receive his blessings? And how shall we love him when we do not know him and his blessings?
And how shall we know him and his blessings when no word is preached concerning them and when the Gospel is left to lie under the table?
Where the Gospel is not in evidence, knowledge of God is an impossibility.
Then to love and praise him is likewise impossible.As a further consequence it is necessarily impossible for divine service to exist.
Even if all the choristers were one chorister, all the priests one priest,
all the monks one monk, all the churches one church,
all the bells one bell; in brief if all the foolish services offered to God in the institutions, churches and cloisters were a hundred thousand times greater and more numerous than they are,what does God care for such carnivals and juggling?54. Therefore, God complains most of the Jews in the second chapter of Micah,
because they silenced his praise, while at the same time,
they piped, blared and moaned like we do.
True divine service of praise cannot be established with revenues,
nor be circumscribed by laws and statutes.
High and low festivals have nothing to do with it.
It emanates from the Gospel, and certainly is as often rendered by a poor,
rustic servant as by a great bishop. [51]55. It is plainly evident who have abolished divine service and still daily SUPPRESS it. They are none but that hopeless rabble, the Pope and his blockheads the bishops and priests, monks and nuns,
whose great boast is of their divine services; who delight to be called the spiritual class and, by their juggling, grasp the advantages and honors of the world and live in riotousness.
Yet they pretend to help others to heaven with their foolish works and no mention of the Gospel. Indeed, they persecute and condemn the Gospel, giving Peter just occasion to term them children of condemnation.
56. Note, Paul says divine service must be rendered with "one MIND" and with "one MOUTH."
We render divine service when we are harmonious,
and when we recognize our common equality and our common blessings in Christ;
when NONE exalts himself above another nor assumes special advantages.Jay and the Progressives are ANTI-Regulative Principle used by Calvin and most others.
The LOGOS is the Regulative Principle
Jay Guin: 3. Churches we sometimes call apostate do actually get some things right. Do we toss out meeting houses because it wasn’t until Constantine that the church could own buildings? Do we toss out hymn books because they weren’t invented until after Gutenberg? Oh, please! Instrumental music goes back to David and will survive in heaven. It wasn’t invented by the Catholics.
God made Christ the LOGOS or Regulative Principle.
Therefore, they are ANTI-Christs.
Not so: After Constantine the unwashed Catholic robbed the pagan temple and confiscated them.
Synagogue or Ekklesia means the ASSEMBLY or the HOUSE where the assembly assembles. There were hundreds of synagogues in the time of Jesus and He attended and approved of houses.
Psalms 74:7 They have cast fire into thy sanctuary, they have defiled by casting down the dwelling place of thy name to the ground.
Psalms 74:8 They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land.
Psalms 74:9 We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long.
Psalms 83:12 Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession.
Jay Guin: 4. This division argument is a shameful argument, because issues such as instrumental music only divide when we make them divide!
That's about as smart as saying that when you shoot cock robin HE is the guilty party because he bleeds on your tutu.
Consider Richland Hills or Quail Springs. They added an additional, instrumental service, forcing no one to act against his conscience. Other churches damned them. Who is the divider? Who is the factious one?
THE ONE WHO VIOLATES DIRECT COMMANS IS THE LOST PERSON
Luther: 5. The best rule to follow in such matters is the rule of love. You should hold the same attitude toward these two classes that you would toward a wolf and a sheep.
Suppose a wolf were to wound almost fatally a sheep,
and you were to proceed with rage against the sheep,
declaring it to be wrong in being wounded, that it should be sound;and you were violently to compel it to follow the other sheep to the pasture and to the fold, giving it no special care; would not all men declare you inconsiderate?
The sheep might well say: "Certainly it is wrong for me to be wounded, and unquestionably I ought to be sound;
but direct your anger toward the inflicter of my wounds, and assist in my recovery."
So should these Romans have done and have faithfully repelled the wolf-like teachers.At the same time, the consciences weakened and discouraged by false doctrines should have received consideration. The Church at Rome ought not to have denounced nor ignored them,
but rather to have carefully healed their spiritual disorder and ultimately eradicated the wrong doctrines,
in patience bearing with their weak brethren lest they should cause them to err.It would be against one's conscience and willigness to pay for one who lied, cheated and stole the church house so that HE could get His way as an agent of the NACC. If a preachers says that God COMMANDED Him to impose instruments and sow discord then to say that WE STILL PERMIT a cappella is a very shady view of Christianity.
The person who IMPOSES something not required and not permitted by the founders of a congregation then among all honest people HE is called the SECTARIAN or HERETIC. He adds an INSTRUMENTAL SECT and uses the same property he promised NOT to add instruments on Sunday. Who gives Rick Atckley the right.
This proves that neither Rick Atchley or Jay Guin has a remote clue about the meaning of "gathering, assemblying or coming together" not do they have a Christian understanding of worship.
Jay Guin: Why aren’t we dividers when we refuse to celebrate communion with just one cup? Why aren’t we dividers when we have Sunday school or cooperate to support orphanages, even though we know this offends the sensibilities of others? We are such hypocrites!
The Restoration founders agree with the Bible and recorded history that there is no LAW OF LAYING BY IN STORE. It was not even a command for people to send money to the destitute "street people" in Judea. If the members decide to give money for specified needs then no one has the authority to take money from the widows and honest workers and DIVERT it into whatever they want to do ONCE they have the money in their evil hands.
None of this has anything to do with the fact that the only authority for people to call themselves into assembly is to Rest, Read and Rehearse the Word of God: that's the only pattern. If you impose instruments the literate members know that you are lying to God and about God.
Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: in the Ezekiel 33 example Christ defines hypocrites as self-speakers (outlawed in Isaiah 58), singers and instrument players also outlawed in Isaiah 50 and elsewhere.
A hypocrite is an ACTOR who presumes to PERFORM worship for another person. A person has a RIGHT to send their money where they wish and to call them a HYPOCRITE is just plain psychological violence to make up for no evidence
Jay Guin: The cure for division is not to behave as the most rule-bound among us would want. The cure for division is to stop dividing.
Good idea, Jay but those who impose INSTRUMENTS know and plan ahead for the fact that they can loose up to half of the member and make it economically to "transistion" the monies to another denomination and make it up by sucking in the seekers--a term Hitler used.
From the wilderness onward the RULE or Absolute Command was to silence "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" including any kind of self-speak: the command was to Rest, Read and Rehears the Word. That is what Jesus example and commanded and what Paul practiced and commanded as well as the history church before singing and preaching were added about 600 years too late. Here is the assembly commanded by Paul to Timothy:
1Timothy 4:11 These things command and teach.
1Timothy 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to [public] reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee,
which was given thee by prophecy, [teaching by inspiration]
with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Timothy 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
1Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Jay Guin: Indeed, in arguing that instrumental music isn’t a salvation issue but shouldn’t be practiced because it’s divisive, well, aren’t we tacitly condoning the sin of being factious? If it’s a grave sin to be factious, why allow the factious to set the agenda?
It is a salvation issue from the singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden to the Babylon Mother of Harlots whose ministers are the lusted-after fruits who are speakers, singers, instrument players, Sorcerers. The SOUNDS of these sorcerers means that the LAMPS or seven spirits of Divine knowledge are REMOVED.
God hates the MUSIC in the temple or holy place and God HATES people who sow discord: the one who IMPOSES is the Sectarian by all definitions.
Jay Guin: I concede that most churches will need
to precede a decision to go instrumental with patient, prayerful teaching
so that no one is required to worship contrary to his conscience.
I don’t concede that whoever is
the most legalistic among us gets to always have their way.
Just WHO is the WE who have the authority to Boil the Frogs so they will not leave us totally: that leaves time to MAKE UP those you know you are discording by people who have no interest in the Word.
A Church of Christ is a SCHOOL OF CHRIST: the command is to use one mind and one mouth to teach that which is written for our learning. Now, Jay would not be so destructive if he understood that a Christian is a Disciple and disciples DON'T GO to worship services PERFORMED by those Jesus defined as hypocrites: speakers, singers and instrument players.
The command is to SPEAK the ODES
-lexis , eōs, h(, (legō B) A. speech, OPPOSITE. ōdē, Pl.Lg.816d; l. ē praxis speech or action, Id.R.396c; ho tropos tēs l. ib.400d; ta lexei dēloumena orders given by word of mouth,
-ōdē , hē, contr. for aoidē, OPPOSITE lexis,
Ode and Psallo is in the heart or KEPT SILENT in the same way the "songs" in 1 Corinthians 14 are into the air or singing to yourself.
The Object is Teaching and Comforting: instruments do neither. Therefore, any literate reading of Ephesians 5 proves that the singing and psallo are NOT outward but in simple words IN the heart where only God hears you.
THE RAT TRAP IS SET AND SPRUNG AND INSTRUMENTALISTS ARE ANGELS OF BLIGHT.
Plat. Rep. 3.396a and in other ways sinning against themselves and others in word and deed after the fashion of such men. And I take it they must not form the habit of likening themselves to madmen either in words nor yet in deeds. For while knowledge they must have both of mad and bad men and women, they must do and imitate nothing of this kind.” “Most true,” he said. “What of this?” I said, “—are they to imitate smiths and other craftsmen or the rowers of triremes and those who call the time to them or other things
Plat. Rep. 3.396b “How could they,” he said, “since it will be forbidden them even to pay any attention to such things?” “Well, then, neighing horses and lowing bulls, and the noise of rivers and the roar of the sea and the thunder and everything of that kind—will they imitate these?”
“Nay, they have been forbidden,” he said, “to be mad or liken themselves to madmen.”
“If, then, I understand your meaning,” said I, “there is a form of diction and narrative in which
For this rejection of violent realism Cf. Laws 669 C-D. Plato describes exactly what Verhaeren's admirers approve: “often in his rhythm can be heard the beat of hammers, the hard, edged, regular whizzing of wheels, the whirring of looms, the hissing of locomotives; often the wild, restless tumult of the streets, the humming and rumbling of dense masses of people.”Commentary:
mimēteon. See on mimeisthai 395 D. hippous -- brontas. The reference is probably to stage machinery and musical effects etc. in dramatic poetry generally, as well as in the later and degenerate form of the dithyramb (see on 394 C). Cf. (with Nettleship Lect. and Rem. II p. 105) Laws 669 C ff. and Ar. Plut. 290 ff. The bronteion and keraunoskopeion for producing thunder and lightning were familiar enough (Müller Gr. Bühnenalt. p. 157 note 2). It is clear, as Nettleship remarks, that “Plato felt strongly that Greek literature and music were declining” in his days: see Laws 659 A ff., 700 A ff., 797 A ffTHE ONLY MEANING OF LEGALISM IS TO IDENTIFY APOLLO, ABADDON OR APOLLYON AND HIS MUSES WHO WERE DIRTY ADULTERESSES.
Nomos , ho, (nemō) b. in VT, of the law of God, “en tō nomō Kuriou to thelēma autou” LXXPs.1.2, al., cf. Is.2.3; nomon hon eneteilato humin Mōusēs ib.De.33.4; so in NT, “ho n. Mōuseōs” Ev.Luc.2.22, etc.; but also “ho n. tou Khristou” Ep.Gal.6.2; ho n. tou Pneumatos tēs zōēs, opp. ho n. tēs hamartias kai tou thanatou, Ep.Rom.8.2; “n. teleios ho tēs eleutherias” Ep.Jac.1.25.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Walking by the Spirit means walking by the WORD (John 6:63)
The Jews and Jay Guin's Levite PATTERNISTS had a covenant with death and hell.
The Law of Moses was added because of the transgression of Instrumental Idolatry at Mount Sinai. The Jacob-cursed and God-abandoned Levites performed based on the LAW OF THE GOD-CURSED MONARCHY.
Jay Guin gets his FOUNDATION laid on the Levites as worshipers of the starry host. That includes the Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon of Revelation.
Legalism: II. melody, strain, “oida d' ornikhōn nomōs pantōn” Alcm.67; “n. hippios” Pi.O. 1.101; “Apollōn hageito pantoiōn n.” Id.N.5.25; “n. polemikoi” Th.5.69; “epēlalaxan Arai ton oxun n.” A.Th.952 (lyr.); “krektoi n.” S.Fr. 463, cf. AP9.584: metaph., “tous Haidou n.” S.Fr.861.
also for the flute, “n. aulōdikos” Plu.2.1132d; without sung text, n. aulētikos ib.1133d, cf. 138b, Poll.4.79; later, composition including both words and melody,
Isis was the mother (spirit) goddess in Egypt and worshipped under the golden calf as musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. LEGALISM is especially marked by performing what they think is great music because it is the most works-intensive thing one can do when God calls us to REST. Performing artists say "look at us" and worship so they are replacing Jesus as the only Mediator and their HARD WORK they believe can have some influence on God's approval of them. That IS legalism
Plat. Laws 2.657b all this lapse of time are the compositions of Isis. Hence, as I said, if one could by any means succeed in grasping no principle of correctness in tune, one might then with confidence reduce them to legal form and prescription, since the tendency of pleasure and pain to indulge constantly in fresh music has, after all, no very great power to corrupt choric forms that are consecrated, by merely scoffing at them as antiquated. In Egypt, at any rate, it seems to have had no such power of corrupting,—in fact, quite the reverse.
9.17.13
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