Jay.Guin.Reflections.Rick.Atchley.Chris.Seidman

From Jay Guin's Forum

Christians Never Attend Worship Services or operations Paul calls Lying Wonders.

Reflections on My Interview with Rick Atchley and Chris Seidmanhttp://pineycom.nationprotect.net/Psalm.75.Rick.Atchley.Chris.Seidman.html

http://www.pineycom.com/Rick.Atchley.Chris.Seidman.Instrumental.Music.Delusion.html

Rick.Atchley.Chris.Seidman.Instrumental.Music.Delusion

http://pineycom.nationprotect.net/Jay.Guin.Reflections.Rick.Atchley.Chris.Seidman.html

10/28/2010
vhttps://archives.wineskins.org/article/reflections-on-my-interview-with-rick-atchley-and-chris-seidman-sept-dec-2010/

by Jay Guin
September - December, 2010

Should We Add Instrumental WORSHIP?

So the question must be asked: should our churches add instrumental services? Or is it good enough to remain a cappella? Well, what are the arguments pro and con?

In favor of exclusively a cappella WORSHIP —

Adding instrumental WORSHIP is sinful.

A cappella music is a mark of the church.

A cappella is our identity. The Churches of Christ were founded as an exclusively a cappella fellowship, and to add instrumental services is to, therefore, be something else.

Adding instrumental services will lead to division, because many churches will split rather than tolerate an instrumental service.

Many dearly loved members will feel compelled to leave to preserve relationships with family members elsewhere who won’t fellowship those who tolerate those who WORSHIP with an instrument.

The instrument isn’t needed for the church’s mission. We can grow without it.

In favor of adding an instrumental service —

Instrumental music doesn’t damn (as demonstrated in the series on Patternism and the earlier post in this series “On God’s Salvation, Galatians, and the Instrument”).

Instrumental music isn’t even sinful sinful (as demonstrated by several earlier posts in this series).

Nowhere do the scriptures suggest that the church will be marked by the form of its WORSHIP. It is indeed marked by whom it WORSHIPs and by its love (John 13:34-35) and unity (John 17:20-21). It’s marked by the indwelling Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). But not by a cappella music.

Our identity is in Christ. Indeed, when we speak of “us” as a subset of the Kingdom with its own traditions and heritage, we risk becoming sectarian, even factious, in our thinking. Is “us” the body of Christ, the church of Christ, the Kingdom of heaven? Or is “us” the portion of those who have an a cappella heritage? Why should we insist on an identity other than Christ? Why isn’t being in Christ enough?

Refusing instrumental music leads to division. We are divided from brothers who WORSHIP with the instrument already — by our own decision to refuse fellowship. Why do we blame others for our own sinful attitude? Moreover, no one is suggesting that we deny our members the opportunity to WORSHIP a cappella. Therefore, if a member leaves because someone else in his congregation WORSHIPs with an instrument, it’s not because he is being tempted to sin. It’s not because he is being asked to violate his conscience. Rather, he is acting on a false gospel that teaches that an entire congregation is damned if it allows any of its members to use an instrument — and that he leaves in violation of the truth of the gospel.

It is a sad truth that many members will be more loyal to their earthly families than to their congregations — and so leave their congregation to avoid a fight with their families. But wouldn’t it be better if they, instead, took the opportunity to teach a better, truer gospel to their families?

Whether the instrument helps a church be more evangelistically effective depends on the local setting. But in most settings, I am convinced that the instrument will help. And how many souls should we be willing to sacrifice for the sake of internal peace — when internal strife over things like the instrument is sin? Why would we let the immaturity and false understandings of our members stand in the way of the Kingdom? Why not, instead, patiently, gently, and lovingly teach the truth of the gospel, over and over, until the members understand — and then change?

I would like to offer this simple proposal. I think each Church of Christ — regardless of FACTOPM — should do at least one of the following three things:

Begin a diligent program of teaching the grace of Christ. A proper course of study would include an understanding of the eternal purposes of God and his plan of redemption , Romans, the Gospels, Galatians, Hebrews, and Ephesians, all taught from a gospel perspective (which is also how they are written).

For those churches that have already done this, make your teaching reality by either (or both) —

Actively and visibly fellowshipping instrumental congregations,

demonstrating to your congregation and to the community

that you truly consider instruments not to be a salvation or fellowship issue; and/or

Adding an instrumental service to your own WORSHIP.

Think about it. If you aren’t willing to actively and visibly fellowship an instrumental congregation, then you have some serious teaching to do. Even if you’re persuaded that you don’t need the instrument to be effective in your mission, you must be united with the entire body of Christ. It’s a command. You don’t even have to infer it from silences.

If in your setting you’d be more effective in Kingdom work with the instrument, I don’t see how you have a lot of choice. You can’t trade effectiveness in the work Jesus died for you to do for peace with legalists who misunderstand the gospel. For them, the proper response isn’t giving them control of the church. It’s instruction. For you, it’s being about your Father’s business.

The Instrument as Proxy

I guess I’ve always known it, but until I was reviewing the interview with Rick Atchley and Chris Seidman, it didn’t really hit me that instrumental music is a proxy for nearly every division in the Churches of Christ. You see, the theology and hermeneutics we invented over the last 150 years to require a cappella singing and justify our division over the issue has led to a series of other divisions.

It’s been often argued that if instrumental music is sin and if we must divide over instrumental music, then X is sin and we must divide over X, too. And thus the 20th Century is filled with one division after another over this X or another, all based on the doctrines invented to justify division over the instrument.

Therefore, if we finally persuade each other than we can’t bind the opinion of Third and Fourth Century bishops on one another, finally putting the whole instrumental music issue to rest, we’ve only cured one of many divisions. We’ll still argue over whether we must damn one another over elder re-affirmation or the role of women. The division will continue until we realize that the whole scheme that leads to this kind of thinking is anti-scriptural and wickedly divides the body of Christ.

(1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ESV) ¹⁶ Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? ¹⁷ If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

“You” is plural in each occurrence in this passage. “You” is the church, and “destroys” refers to dividing God’s church.

The only way I can figure that we can atone for dividing God’s church is to re-unite it. It’s not enough to say we’re sorry. It’s not enough to teach a better gospel. These are necessary steps, but we must swallow hard, eat a little crow, and shake the hands of those we separated from. We must actually unite and be in fellowship with the entirety of the body of Christ. Anything short of that is to be an accessory-after-the-fact, permitting the continuance of destructive divisions that we may not have caused but which we inherited and that we are charged to heal. We are called to be peacemakers, not keepers of the status quo.

And if we’ll put the instrumental music controversy behind us by taking an affirmation step to reach out to the instrumental community of Christians, we’ll not only take a step toward unity as to the instrument, we’ll help put to death the entire body of doctrine that seeks to divide and damn over countless petty disagreements.

God called us to do good works, and I can think of none greater than working for the unity of his people.

The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ

In the interview, Rick and Chris made a powerful point regarding the future of the progressive Churches of Christ, which is that these churches are plateaued and soon to die if they don’t change.

Up until now, most progressive Churches of Christ have operated as hospitals for broken Church of Christ members but not as beachheads of the Kingdom in the world. My own congregation has many members who grew up in legalistic a cappella Churches of Christ, and we’ve experienced dramatic growth because of they transferred from less grace-centered churches. But we’re plateaued. Why? Well, in part because you can’t grow but so much through transfers, and in part because we aren’t very evangelistically effective.

Meanwhile, in my home town, community churches that teach a non-denominational Christianity that places scripture above tradition and that study the Bible rather than their denominational history are growing. They stole our playbook!

There is unquestionably a need for a church that nurses and heals those broken by the legalist congregations of our denomination. But that need is quickly ending as the old legalistic congregations are dying. Members my age tell me of their old churches back home being down to 20 members, demanding one more sermon on baptism and the Five Acts. We won’t be receiving any more wounded from those churches.

While we still need to help wounded Christians recover from legalism, the greater need is to help heal a wounded world. And we are working to becoming that kind of church. But, yet, one thing remains. We have to become united with the rest of God’s Kingdom. We can’t plausibly claim to be a part of the body of Christ while isolated from our instrumental brothers in other congregations. And our members have to decide that we have to give a few comforts up to be more effective in the mission of God.

Recent studies show that evangelical churches aren’t growing much at all as a whole, but that non-denominational community churches are growing rapidly. That means the denominational churches are losing members to non-denominational churches. And isn’t that what the Restoration Movement has always been about? Calling believers out of the denominations to be united on just the gospel?

Of course, it would be woefully inadequate to merely steal sheep from the denominations in order to grow a congregation but not the Kingdom! No, the goal is the expansion of the Kingdom, and that can only be accomplished by uniting the Kingdom — which is quite impossible if we insist on being separate.

As Thomas Campbell wrote in 1809 —

Meantime the truly religious of all parties are grieved, the weak stumbled; the graceless and profane hardened, the mouths of infidels opened to blaspheme religion; and thus, the only thing under heaven, divinely efficacious to promote and secure the present spiritual and eternal good of man, even the gospel of the blessed Jesus, is reduced to contempt; while multitudes deprived of a gospel ministry, as has been observed, fall an easy prey to seducers, and so become the dupes of almost unheard of delusions. Are not such the visible effects of our sad divisions, even in this otherwise happy country. — Say, dear brethren, are not these things so.

The goal of the Restoration Movement was to heal divisions. Thomas Campbell and Barton W. Stone had founded the Movement and seen it grow and prosper long before anyone even thought about an instrumental music controversy. The goal was unity, and we can’t claim to be promoting unity while insisting on remaining a sect separate from other believers, divided by our anti-gospel refusal to fellowship those who use the instrument.

Finally, our children care nothing about the instrumental music controversy. They’ve not heard the sermons, and they’ve not engaged in the debates. To them, the instrument just isn’t an issue. And that’s true of the children of many very conservative Churches of Christ. In an age when the Bible is available in easy-to-read contemporary English, and when the struggle against the world is vastly more important than the church’s internal struggles, our kids are just not persuaded that we need to divide over the instrument.

Amen.

And this means that they’ll find a church that helps them grow in faith and serve Christ without regard to the instrument. And a church that’s entirely a cappella may well appear legalistic to the eyes of a young man or woman, even if the church teaches the true gospel. They will look for churches that practice what they preach — including unity and including presenting the gospel in terms of the local culture.
I’m not saying that an instrumental service is essential to a church today. Rather, I’m saying —

Actively and visibly fellowshipping instrumental churches is essential to being the church God calls us to be.

Choosing to be exclusively a cappella because your members are too legalistic to permit it means you have some serious teaching to do.

If the world is searching for nondenominational Christianity that puts scripture above tradition and works of service above doctrinal disputation, then God has answered the prayers of the Restoration Movement. We should join in the work of God by making as many churches of this kind as possible.

Jay Guin is the author of The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace: God’s antidotes for division within the Churches of Christ and the blog OneInJesus.info. He graduated from David Lipscomb College in 1975 and the University of Alabama School of Law in 1978. He now practices law in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

Jay is an elder with the University Church of Christ and married to Denise Hendrix Guin, with four sons, Chris, Jonathan, Tyler, and Philip.

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COMPROMISED CONVICITONS

Concern for the church rightly emerges when the need is ever increasing for distinctive Bible preaching, the methodologies of denominationalism brazenly are employed, and the congregations use men for gospel meetings and special events who publicly and prominently have been exposed as false teachers. If convictions ever were present, they thusly have been compromised. Or, as Peter said, “[They] have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray” (II Pet. 2:15a).

Christians should be reminded they are in a battle for truth. Paul wrote, “Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles [Gk. methodeia, i.e., methods, specifically tricks] of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore...” (Eph. 6:10-14a). Elsewhere Paul charged, “Fight the good fight of faith...” (I Tim. 6:12).

Today, 18:05:02

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An influential preacher and editor during the restoration movement of the nineteenth century was David Lipscomb of Nashville, Tennessee. On this point, long ago he wrote, “The number of men who are willing to work on either side of a question that will pay would be surprising to those not in position to know and who have not become accustomed to such things. It is the discouraging feature about the work of the churches today. So few men are willing to stand to their convictions--nay are willing to have convictions on any subject that will interfere with their worldly success. But truth can never be maintained, save by those who are willing to honor their own convictions, cherish a keen sense of right, are afraid of the least participation in that which is wrong, and will honor and maintain the truth, let it cost what it may of popularity or private prosperity. Let us, then, drink deeply of the essence of the spirit of Christ. Without it the Christian religion cannot exist.”¹
        Christians compromise their convictions when they plead ignorance of erroneous practices and teaching within their own congregations. The condition is even more pitiful when it occurs among the elders. Jesus taught all Christians to be watchful (Matt. 24:42-25:13). But, elders have accepted watchfulness as a special and particular vocation (Acts 20:28-31).
        Christians compromise their convictions when they participate in erroneous practices and allow false teaching to go unchallenged and unchecked within their own congregations. The criticism of Paul to Corinth concerning fornication is memorable, “And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you” (I Cor. 5:2). He set a good example of conviction when the liberty in Christ was challenged at Jerusalem by false brethren. He wrote, “To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you” (Gal. 2:5).
        Christians compromise their convictions when they criticize those who are valiant for truth. At Galatia, Paul questioned, “Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?“ (Gal. 4:16). Known as the argument ad hominem, that is, literally “to the man,” meaning to attack the character instead of the contention, the critic endeavors to dodge the force of the argument by prejudicing the minds of his auditors. Like Christ, Paul said, “At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge” (II Tim. 4:16).
        The challenge of courageous convictions hereby is communicated to all Christians. Finally, “Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong” (I Cor. 16:13).

^{1David Lipscomb,}A Commentary on the New Testament Epistles, ed. by J.W. Shepherd, Vol. V (Nashville, TN: Gospel Advocate Company, 1942), pp. 100-101.

Today, 18:05:38

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Brother Lipscomb was asked to comment on Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16, which some were using to justify instrumental music in WORSHIP. Lipscomb replied: It is the sentiment that is sung that constitutes the WORSHIP; there is no acceptable WORSHIP in music distinct from the sentiment sung. The music of the song is only a means of impressing the sentiment sung more deeply on the hearts of both singer and hearer. What is sung must be the outgrowth of the word of God dwelling richly in the heart. It is to be done by speaking that word of God in
song. The purpose is to praise God and teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in the heart to the Lord. No performance of an instrument can possibly grow out of the word of God in the heart; an instrument cannot speak that word either to praise God or to teach and admonish one another. The sound of the instrument drowns the words sung and hinders the teaching and admonition.
The use of the instrument hinders and destroys the essential purpose of the WORSHIP in song. It works an entire change in the song service; it sooner or later changes it from a service of praise to God and of teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs into a musical and artistic entertainment that pleases and cultivates the fleshly and sensuous nature. A more hurtful change could not be made in the WORSHIP than this change in its spirit and purpose (Lipscomb, 224-230).
When we read these words of Lipscomb, we want to check the date. It almost sounds

Today, 17:49:07

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It almost sounds as if he wrote yesterday or the day before. The problems faced in his day were not so different to the ones we hear today, and the wisdom of Lipscomb seems as fresh now as when his words were first spoken. The question in Lipscomb’s day was much the same as now. People not only wanted to know whether the introduction of instrumental music was wrong, but was it a “fellowship
issue”?
Hear David Lipscomb once again:
It seems there cannot be a doubt but that the use of instrumental music in connection with the WORSHIP of God, whether used as a part of the WORSHIP or as an attractive accompaniment, is unauthorized by God and violates the oft-repeated prohibition to add nothing to, take nothing from, the commandments of the Lord. It destroys the difference between the clean and the unclean, the holy and the unholy, counts the blood of the Son of God unclean, and tramples under foot the authority of the Son of God. They have not been authorized by God or sanctified
with the blood of his Son. A Christian loyal and true to the Lord Jesus Christ cannot use them, nor in any way countenance the setting aside the order of God by adding to or taking from his appointments, even in the smallest matters, as washing of hands. While forbearance and love should be exercised in showing the sinfulness of their use, when the church determines to introduce a service not required by God, he who believes it is wrong is compelled to refuse in any way to countenance or affiliate with the wrong. To do so is to sin against God and his
own conscience and to encourage by example others to violate their consciences and the law of God; it is to lower the standard of regard for the authority of God.

Today, 17:52:33

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Lisa

Amen!

Yesterday, 19:51:08

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Joy

Thank God for congregational autonomy. Thank God that Jesus is still the head of His church.

Yesterday, 16:56:30

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Kenneth Sublett

Then, can we assume that you would not agree with a preacher who held a hidden agenda to IMPOSE instruments into a peaceable Church of Christ. He teaches and organizes for 10-12 years.

Then, in the middle of a sermon a spirit stopped him and he knew that he had to "preach that sermon." So, with the false teaching supplied by an instrumental denomination which just lifts "instrument" phrases by the Scribes (Called hypocrites by Jesus and defined by Christ as entertainment preachers, singers and instrument players), who had been ABANDONED to WORSHIP the starry host BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai, they just convinced several thousand but only after a long preparation gradualism agenda.

And then says that God commanded instrumental praise because the Levites (an old infant burning sect from Egypt) made instrumental NOISE during the burnt offering of the GOATS for Israel already abandoned. Therefore, some spirit told HIM that he might sow massive discord inorder to impose the musicians he had always intended to impose. And he DID IT.

In the process, like the Pharisees, imposed something he new would DRIVE the widows and honest working people out of THEIR process. And he worked for all of these years being honored by the Instrumental sect in gatherings, preaching and writing before the "spirit" told him it was time (as I hear the CDs which you can purchase) and some of the people I know PURPOSED to restructure most peaceable churches so that CLERGY (no role, no dole) exercised THEIR autonomy to force what you can do: described above as the LAITY.

No Church of Christ cares or works to EXCISE instruments from churches: the ISSUE is people aggressively and powerfully trying to FORCE others to bow when they Pipe. I say that after a historical sowing of discord--of Biblical proportions and right in time--that less than a dozen out of 28000 congregations were taken captive. Jay is whistling in the cemetary so don't blame those SHOT in the heart for bleeding on their dancing slippers.

Yesterday, 20:41:28

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Doug

Kenneth, for the last time, the NACC and the Independent Christian Churches do NOT represemt a denomination. I know that you think that some sort of conspiracy is afoot but telling this story over and over again is just a passing incorrect information. I will not let you tell this whopper and get away with it.

Today, 17:19:37

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Kenneth Sublett

I didn't mention the NACC in that hypothetical case.

You need to brush up on the history of "unity forums" for the lase several decades. I don't speak with a tuning forked tongue

Today, 18:59:35

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Kenneth Sublett

Not that anyone is reading: I have done a quick job on 2 Peter 2:13 which defines what all scholarship knows is SPORTING themselves with deceivings while they FEAST with you.

They think thag godliness is OCCUPATION for gettin gain.

Christ warned about the smiters and pluckers Isaiah 50
Isaiah. 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions: Wounded means "steal people's inheritance, play the flute, pollute or prostitute.

Christ in defining the coming REST commanded us not to pay for the free water of the Word. Isaiah 55
Christ commanded us NOT stoo seek our own pleasure or speak our own words: Isaiah 58

What no one WAGED selling the FREE water of the Word will never let you know as they "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" as the root meaning of music;

http://www.piney.com/2.Peter.2.Instrumental.Music.Marks.Corruption.html

3 days ago, 22:12:08

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Kenneth Sublett

MY QUOTE OF PETER AND DEFINITION OF THE WORDS PETER ETAL USED IS NOT MY WORK.

If you believe that God and all of the writers do not utterly condemn using instrumental noise in God's pressence then I would demand my money back from ACU and all of my "investments with the Lord" form diverted congregations. Diverting monies is bad.

No one SELLING you learning at retail is ever going to have access to word definitions: I have posted my review of Jay's Summery using long descriptive links. There I will add further REAL links to real literature and the persona of religious music and musicians would make half of the "owers" blush and flee their own "progressive" churches. You will probably just want to delete my TRUE QUOTES because Rick has confessed that the progressive have reached their peak with probably less than 12 out of 28,000 congregations.<b>

http://www.piney.com/New.Wineskins.Jay.Guin.Reflections.Atchley.Seidman.html

</b>

3 days ago, 18:58:31

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Kenneth Sublett

I hate to tell you what Jesus and Peter said, but history knows no exception:

Jay defending the indefensible: Begin a diligent program of teaching the grace of Christ. A proper course of study would include an understanding of the eternal purposes of God and his plan of redemption, Romans, the Gospels, Galatians, Hebrews, and Ephesians, all taught from a gospel perspective (which is also how they are written).

2Pet. 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption:
.....for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness,
..... as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time.
.....Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves
.....with their own deceivings [delusions] while they feast with you;

All musicians and rhetoricians are equated to parasites.

Truph-ē ,softness, delicacy, daintiness, 2 Ep.Pet.2.13; II. [select] luxuriousness, wantonness, “tōn gunaikōn hē t.” Ar.Lys.387; t. kai akolasia, t. kai malthakia,
.....malthak-ia , A. = malakia, Pl.R.590b.

Plat. Rep. 590b and irascibility when they foster and intensify disproportionately the element of the lion and the snake1 in us?” “By all means.” “And do we not reprobate luxury and effeminacy for their loosening and relaxation of this same element when they engender cowardice in it?” “Surely.” “And flattery and illiberality when they reduce this same high-spirited element under the rule of the mob-like beast and habituate it for the sake of wealth and the unbridled lusts of the beast to endure all manner of contumely from youth up and become an ape2 instead of a lion?

Entrupo sporting selves. 2. part. truphōn as Adj., EFFEMINATE, luxurious, EFFEMINACYAr.V.1455dainty, delicate, “basilikē kai truphōsa paideia” Pl.Lg.695d; “hoi truphōntes” SPOILED PETS OF THE EKKLESIA, Id.Men.76b; en tais ekklēsiais t. kai kolakeuesthai,

gamêliôi lechei [marriage couch-bed] hêdonais, playing in the wind, EXULT over, treat haughtily or contemptuously, made a mock of, tinos sumphorais, III. use or abuse at pleasure

I will supply links in my posted review to tell you the real story defined in Rev 17-18

3 days ago, 11:01:27

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Keith Brenton

Neither of the preceding posts makes any sense to me, I'm afraid.

3 days ago, 12:56:39

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Liked by

Lisa

Alan Scott

You are to be commended to allow the non-sensical to be posted anyway.

3 days ago, 13:22:16

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Liked by

Price

Lisa

Kenneth Sublett

Maybe he knows that I don''t corrupt the Word which means "sell learning at retail."

Don't we sing "Jesus paid it all"?

3 days ago, 22:03:30

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Chr1sch

I'm always amazed anew! Jay has this gift to communicate with clarity and direct to the point language what many have intuitively thought for a long time but weren't able to put their finger on. Or they just didn't dare to say it. Sad that this series is almost over...

3 days ago, 03:32:53

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Kenneth Sublett

Jay Guin: As Thomas Campbell wrote in 1809 —

Meantime the truly religious of all parties are grieved, the weak stumbled; the graceless and profane hardened, the mouths of infidels opened to blaspheme religion;

Campbell: Declaration and Address COMPLETE. No historical scholar denied that the NT defined what Christ wanted the church to do and be both INCLUSIVELY and EXCLUSIVELY.

http://www.piney.com/RMDeclarAddress.html

And as we have no just reason to doubt the concurrence of our brethren to accomplish an object so desirable in itself, and fraught with such happy consequences, so neither can we look forward to that happy event which will forever put an end to our hapless divisions,

and restore to the Church its primitive unity, purity, and prosperity, but in the pleasing prospect of their hearty and dutiful concurrence.

Dearly beloved brethren, why should we deem it a thing incredible that the Church of Christ, in this highly favored country, should resume that original unity, peace, and purity which belongs to its constitution, and constitutes its glory? Or, is there anything that can be justly deemed necessary for this desirable purpose, both to conform to the model

.....and adopt the practice of the primitive Church, expressly exhibited in the New Testament?

....Whatever alterations this might produce in any or in all of the Churches, should, we think, neither be deemed inadmissible nor ineligible. Surely such alteration would be every way for the better, and not for the worse,

....unless we should suppose the divinely-inspired rule to be faulty, or defective.

Were we, then, in our Church constitution and managements, to exhibit a complete conformity to the apostolic Church, would we not be, in that respect, as perfect as Christ intended we should be? And should not this suffice us?

4 days ago, 19:46:16

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Kenneth Sublett

"Jay Guin: The goal of the Restoration Movement was to heal divisions. Thomas Campbell and Barton W. Stone had founded the Movement and seen it grow and prosper long before anyone even thought about an instrumental music controversy. The goal was unity, and we can’t claim to be promoting unity while insisting on remaining a sect separate from other believers, divided by our anti-gospel refusal to fellowship those who use the instrument.

Barton W. Stone had absolutely nothing in common with Campbell including baptism and Stone denied the atonement: he said that a man could be good enough to save himself. To that end the Stoneites included the Shouting Methodists which, with instruments came through the Catholic, Anglican, Methodists. Stone fathered the Disciples/Christian churches NOT the Campbell movement which came full force when Thomas Campbell got off the boat fueled by John Calvin's call for "The Restoration of the Church of Christ.

http://www.pineycom.com/AC.Lunenburg.Orig.html#1.

1. Let me ask, in the first place, what could mean all that we have written upon the union of Christians on apostolic grounds, had we taught that all Christians in the world were already united in our own community?

2. And in the second place, why should we so often have quoted and applied to apostate Christendom what the Spirit saith to saints in Babylon--"Come out of her, my people, that you partake not of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues"--had we imagined that the Lord had no people beyond the pale of our communion!

3. But let him that yet doubts, read the following passages from the Christian Baptist, April, 1825:--

"I have no idea of seeing, nor wish to see, the sects unite in one grand army.
This would be dangerous to our liberties and laws. For this the Saviour did not pray.
It is ONLY the disciples DISPERSED among them that reason and benevolence would call out of them, "&c. &c. This looks very like our present opinion of Christians among the sects!!! 2d ed. Bethany, p. 85.

4. Again, speaking of purity of speech in order to the union of Christians, we say,
"None of you [Christians] have ever yet attempted to show how Christians can be united on your principles.

You have often showed how they may be divided, and how each party may hold its own,
.......but while you pray for the visible unity of the disciples,
.......and advocate their visible disunity,
.......we cannot understand you." March, 1827, vol. 4.

4 days ago, 18:57:39

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Keith Brenton

Folks, I'm just going to keep on deleting comments that are anonymously-posted pasted-in sermons, ni matter what point of view they take and whether or not they are related to the topic of the article. Please post links to these articles if you wish, but this site will not knowingly or unknowingly infringe on the copyrights of others if it can be prevented.

4 days ago, 14:03:00

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Kenneth Sublett

I wish you would force Jay Guin to give references to his teachings??

4 days ago, 18:51:26

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Keith Brenton

My problem isn't with folks like you who publish their own thoughts and sign their name, Kenneth. It's with folks who publish someone's thoughts - maybe theirs; maybe not - and do not credit them or sign their names to them. That could, as I have said several times in the comments, infringe on the copyrights of others. That's not just a good idea, it's the law (as they used to say on PSAs about seat belts).

The other reason I have deleted comments is when they have simply been personal attacks. That kind of discourse has no place here. (That kind of discourse has no place anywhere.)

Jay is the Editor of this edition. I am the WebServant for this site. We know our jobs and responsibilities. You may wish all you wish.

4 days ago, 20:16:24

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Kenneth Sublett

I understand: I think you have been extremely tolerant with me. I try never to say what I haven't documented in my regular posts which, if not readable, are clickable to the original sources.

I have seen too often that people hacking the church of Christ rely too heavily on "publish or perish" books which almost never quote the original document. No excuse now since you can read clay tablets older than Mose.

4 days ago, 20:22:25

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Kenneth Sublett

In the Bible and many contemporaneous Hebrew parallels, using INSTRUMENT to ELEVATE HIMSELF God Lucifer CAST AS PROFANE OUT OF HEAVEN. He/she/it is called the singing and harp playing prostitute. This uses a real "melody" word. It DAMNED Adam and Eve: the serpent was a musical enchanter(ess). It damned Israel at Mount Sinai. It was the SIGN of the DAMNED: A Covenant with death: the Marzeah in Amos was a feast WITH and FOR dead ancestors. It damns the agents to the Lake of Fire (Isa 3 and Revelation)

Matt. 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto CHILDREN sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
......(That gender prophecy in Isaiah 3 which must be fulfilled as an attack on Jesus)

Latin (will show links in my review of Jay) [15] qui habet aures audiendi audiat [16] cui autem similem aestimabo generationem istam similis est pueris sedentibus in foro qui clamantes coaequalibusi

In Romans14 Paul outlawed the "doubtful disputations" or private opinions in speaking, singing, playing instruments, selling bodies or the MEATS which would be an issue only in the MARKETPLACES.

Forum II. In partic., a public place, market-place.
b). forum olitorium , the vegetable-market, south of the theatre of Marcellus, between the Tiber and the Capitoline hill; “here stood the columna lactaria, at which INFANTS were exposed,”
In which professional cooks offered their services in preparing special entertainments, Plaut. Ps. 3, 2, 1.—

Pl. Ps. 3.2 BALLIO
Those who call it the cook's market, call it so foolishly; for 'tis not a cook's market, but a THIEVES' market. For if, upon oath, I were to seek out the worst of men, I couldn't have brought a worse one than this fellow that I'm bringing, one, chattering, bragging, silly, and worthless. Why, for this very reason Orcus has declined to take him to himself, that he might be here to cook a banquet for the dead; for here he is able to cook a thing to please them alone.

Rather a preserver: The "enchanters," who were called "venefici," "poisoners," were supposed to destroy men by their potions, whence the present reply of the Cook.

The PHARMAKEA performers in Revelation 18 identified the Babylon "scapegoat." Capella is the goat singer.

God did NOT Command Sacrifices, Burnt offering or Exorcism/warrior Instrument players--the Ministers of Molech where they burned infants BEFORE and AFTER HEZEKIAH.

4 days ago, 11:59:57

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Kenneth Sublett

The Seeker Center or "new style of music and drama" (The BEAST) imitates Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon's) SEEKER CENTER at Delphi. The MUSES (locusts) were his "Musical WORSHIP Team" and pretty low class. John calls them SORCERERS and consignes them to the LAKE OF FIRE.

Matt. 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

[17] dicunt cecinimus vobis et non saltastis lamentavimus et non planxistis
Cano to utter melodious notes, to sing, sound, play
C. Transf., of the instruments by which, or (poet.) of the places in which, the sounds are produced, to sound, resound: “canentes tibiae,” Cic. N. D. 2, 8, 22: “maestae cecinere tubae,” Prop. 4 (5), 11, 9.
A. With carmen, cantilenam, versus, verba, etc., to sing, play, rehearse, recite:
a. In gen., to sing, to cause to resound, to celebrate in song, to sing of,
A. Act.: “bellicum (lit. and trop.) canere, v. bellicus: classicum, v. classicus: signa canere jubet,” to give the signal for battle

When children were DAMNED they were exposed in the marketplace: the Agora in Athens while the Ekklesia was up on the Hill.

Salto (once salĭto , This was "performing the woman's role" as David went naked with the camp following girls; He boasted that he MADE HIMSELF VILE: that warrior's PRAISE word.

http://www.piney.com/2.Samuel.6.html

When Paul outlawed all of the performing arts in Romans 15 he connected that to the REPROACHING of Jesus which means to "expose His nakedness" which the Levites were prophesied to do (Psalm 41) and Did.

The Psallo word MARKS those who dallied so they were fined and EXCLUDED from discussion.

4 days ago, 12:47:55

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Price

I once had a dear friend, classmate and Elder in the CoC tell me that he preferred the CoC to maintain all its traditions so that as people travel about the country, that on Sunday when they see a CoC church, they can come in an know what to expect. Over the years I've come to appreciate going to a WORSHIP service where God is in the building and where I DON'T know what to expect... Routine is boring. My prayer for the church as a whole would be that God would breathe a fresh wind into our congregations...would renew our spirits with excitement and joy...that we would be a shining light instead of a dim fliciker... What is it about US that someone sees that would want them to be like us..to have what we have..?? If the Salt has lost its flavor, its good for nothing.....Lord, make us flavorful again !!

4 days ago, 09:20:36

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Lisa

Guest

Dear: Price,

You know before 1960 all the churches of Christ keep the bond of the spirit in unity, but all the influence of this world has influence our way of thinking and unfortunatelly some of our teachers in the Christian colleges getting influence by secularism and denominational Fads has invade the congregations of our lord. What you call tradition is not a tradition because our faith was given by scripture and "not orally" Our WORSHIP is according to Jn. 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who WORSHIP Him must WORSHIP in spirit and truth.” The only way that you can renew your spirit is participating activily in the work of the church accomplishing the mission of the Church. Preach to the lost,edify the saints and benevolence. We don't suppost to have the wrong acctitude toward WORSHIPing God thinking "what can the church do for me instead of what we can do for the church".

4 days ago, 10:51:29

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Price

Dear Guest...I think this whole series on Instrumental WORSHIP casts some reasonable doubt on whether the CoC's position on IM was as you said, "given by scripture." In fact, in seems pretty obvious that a strong argument could be made that it is in fact a tradtition. Not a bad one, but a tradition nonetheless... I would guess that the Holy Spirit can breathe in me a fresh transformation without me having to go through some checklist of works...He is after all..God.

3 days ago, 15:17:45

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