Progressive Church.Historical Theology.New Hermeneutics.pineycom.com

WHAT HAPPENED AT THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST

Russ Corley, Anthony Lancaster, Earl Lavender, Rubel Shelly, Keith Lancaster, Lipscomb University, Spiritual Formation or SORCERY Spiritual Formation Through External Means of Divination.  c. 2001 ad the Prophesied end of day 6. REST is given. to the Tiny Flock as they are forced out of the World Order Commercial churches.  The Spirit apostates have prayed for is the SPIRITUS of Apollyon: the Locusts are his worship team including women beginning the reaping:

John 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter
        [his name is Jesus Christ the Righteous 1 John 2]

 will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:8 And when he is come,
        he will reprove the world of sin,
        and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father,
        and ye see me no more;
John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Strong delusions produce LYING WONDERS including any operations such as rhetoric, music or scenic displays they claim to be from the Spirit

Jesus died to give the sons FROM God who are taught BY GOD to SPEAK or READ only the Word, Logos or regulative Principle to give people REST from Scribes, Pharisees, Hypocrites.

THE PROPHECY OF MOCKING JESUS:
Hypocrites.Music.Burden.gif

FOREORDAINED ACCORDING TO JUDE
Mark.10.They.Shall.Mock.Him.With.Music.html
Mocking.Jesus.Keith.Madison.Church.gif

Jeremiah 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee,
        hath pronounced evil against thee,
        for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah,
        which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger
        in offering incense unto Baal.

Jeremiah 11:18 And the LORD hath given me knowledge of it, and I know it:
        then thou shewedst me their doings.

Jeremiah 11:19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter;
        and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying,
        Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living,
        that his name may be no more remembered.

Those who get a vision to MOCK JESUS in fulfillment of prophecy ALSO rush to remove CHRIST from their public confession.

-mansŭesco , I. Act., to tame, to make tame B. Trop., to render mild, gentle, or peaceable:
nam me jam ab orationibus dijungo fere, referoque ad mansuetiores Musas,Cic. Fam. 1, 9, 23: “ira,Ov. Tr. 3, 6, 23.—

dēlūbrum , i, n. de-luo, the place of expiation, cella [holy place as a house only for a god]noctu audita ex delubro vox est, etc.,Liv. 29, 18: so coupled with templa,id. 30, 20:
wickedly, profanely illūdo to play at or with any thing, to sport with, amuse one's self with (syn. colludo; cf. ludificor). 1. To make sport or game of, to jest, mock, or jeer at, to ridicule (class.).
1. To scoff or mock at, to make a laughing-stock of, to ridicule ipsa praecepta (rhetorum),Cic. de Or. 1, 19, 87: “voces Neronis, quoties caneret,Tac. A. 14, 52: verbis virtutem superbis, Verg. A. 9, 634.—
Mūsa , ae, f., = Mousa, I.a  muse, one of the goddesses of poetry, music,
Musarum delubra,Cic. Arch. 11, 27: “hic Musarum parens domusque Pieria, Mela, 2, 3, 2: crassiore Musā,
A. A song, a poem: “musa procax,Hor. C. 2, 1, 37

koma A. deep sleep, “autō . . malakon peri kōma kalupsaIl.14.359; “ē me . . malakon peri kōm' ekalupsenOd.18.201; kakon de he kōma kalupteiHes.Th.798; “hupnou k.Theoc.Ep.3.6: metaph., of the effect of music, Pi.P.1.12.
2. Medic., lethargic state, coma, “kōma sunekhes, oukh hupnōdesHp.Epid.3.6
Dumb means the inability to MEDITATE on what is going on. 
cōgĭto The command is to SPEAK the Word and MEDITATE in the heart: not to make music. Cogitation in a rational sense can be stopped by (d). With de: “cogitavit etiam de Homeri   carminibus abolendis,

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isa 53:7

Oppressed is from the Hebrew:

Nagas (h5065) naw-gas'; a prim. root; to drive (an animal, a workman, a debtor, an army); by impl. to tax, harass, tyrannize: - distress, driver, exact (-or), oppress (-or), * raiser of taxes, taskmaster.

The burden Jesus died to remove was:

Phortizo (h5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to load up (prop. as aa vessel or animal), i.e. (fig.) to overburden with ceremony (or spiritual anxiety): - lade, be heavy laden.

Phoros (h5411) for'-os; from 5342; a load (as borne,) i.e. (fig.) a tax (prop. an individ. assessment on persons or property; whereas 5056 is usually a gen. toll on goods or travel): - tribute.

pherō   pherō  2.  carry away as booty or prize, enara, teukhea, Il.6.480, 17.70; “aiga leonte ph.13.199; deipnon ph., of Harpies, A.Eu.51; “enekhura bia ph.Antipho 6.11; in the phrase pherein kai agein (cf. “agō1.3), IG12.69.19; pheronta ē agonta Lex ap.D.23.60; “ai ka . . agē ē pherēLeg.Gort.5.37; “hērpazon kai epheronLys.20.17; keirōn ē pherōnIG12(9).90.10 (Tamynae, iv B. C.); “ai tis ka . . pherei ti tōn en ta hiara gaTab.Heracl.1.128; of a divorced wife, “ai de ti allo pheroi andros, pente statērans katastasei kōti ka pherē autonLeg.Gort.3.2; pherein alone, rob, plunder,theōn hiera E.Hec.804; “allēlousTh.1.7; abs., SIG38.23 (Teos, v B. C.):—Pass., “pheromenoi Bakkhōn hupoE.Ba.759:—Med. in same sense, “enaraIl.22.245; “pelekeas oikonde ph.23.856; “aterpea daitaOd.10.124, cf. 15.378.

ena^ra
, ōn, ta, (enairō
A.arms and trappings of a slain foe, spoils, “pherein e. brotoentaIl.6.480; “pheromai8.534; poll' e. Trōōn taken from them, 13.268; so “e. brotoenta Dolōnos10.570: generally, spoil, booty, tēn [phormigga] “aret' ex enarōn9.188, cf. 6.68, Hes.Sc. 367.--Ep. word (used by S.Aj.177 (lyr.)) for Trag. skula, laphura.
phorm-igx , iggos, ,
A.lyre, freq. in Hom., esp. as the instrument of Apollo, “phormiggos perikalleos hēn ekh' ApollōnIl.1.603, cf. 24.63, Od.17.270, Hes.Sc.203; of Achilles, “phrena terpomenon phormiggi ligeiē kalē daidaleēIl.9.186; with seven strings (after Terpander's time), heptaktupos, heptaglōssos, Pi.P.2.71, N.5.24; “antipsallōn elephantodeton ph.Ar.Av.219 (anap.).
2. ph. akhordos, metaph. for a bow
KAIROS the Demon son of Zeus like HERMES was the god of thieves and liars.
keirō , fut. Theoc.14.46; v. khrōs 1.2, egkuti; shear sheep, “makhairai kourides, hais keiromen ta probata kai tous poimenas3. metaph., 'fleece', plunder, “tēn mammēnHerod.3.39.
2. ravage a country, esp. by cutting down crops and fruit-trees, “to pedionHdt.5.63; “temenosId.6.75, cf. OGI765.10 (Priene); “tēn gēnHdt.6.99, Th. 1.64; “khōranAen.Tact.15.9; destroy, “polinCall.Fr.1.60 P.; also, clear, of pioneers, “orosHdt.7.131:—Pass., of a country, to be ravaged, karēnaiId.4.127, cf.
3. ekeire polukerōn phonon slaughtered many a horned beast by hewing, S.Aj.55.
1. tear, eat greedily, of beasts, keirei t' eiselthōn bathu lēion onos] Il.11.560; of fish, “dēmon . . epinephridion keirontes21.204; of vultures, “hēpar ekeironOd.11.578, cf. Luc.DDeor. 1.1, DMort.30.1.
MAKING JESUS DUMB BEFORE THE SLAUGHTER FULFILLED

Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,
        and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him,
        and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
Matthew 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
Matthew 27:31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him,
        and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

Empaizō , fut. to be deluded  II. sport in or on, “hōs nebros khloerais e. leimakos hēdonaisE.Ba. 866 (lyr.); tois khoroisin e. to sport in the dance, Ar.Th.975; “ gumnasiōLuc.Lex.5.
-Prospaizô , 2. abs., sport, jest, 3. laugh at, make fun or sport ofsing to the gods, sing in their praise or honour, 2. banter, tous rhêtoras

2 Peter 3 Marks of the End Time Mockers

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may
        be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets,
        and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

That is the CURRICULUM for DISCIPLES who attend the School of the Word and not pagan ceremonial legalism

2 Peter 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first,
        that there shall come in the last days scoffers,
        walking after their own lusts,

LEADER OF THE CHORUS

-Aristoph. Thes.[947] Let us now devote ourselves to the sports which the women are accustomed to celebrate here, when time has again brought round the mighty Mysteries of the great goddesses, the sacred days which Pauson himself honours by fasting and would wish feast to succeed feast, that he might keep them all holy. Spring forward with a light step, whirling in mazy circles; let your hands interlace, let the eager and rapid dancers sway to the music and glance on every side as they move. - 

Great Goddesses:

Paizo dance, play a game,  4. play on a musical instrument, h.Ap.206: c. acc., Pan ho kalamo phthongapaizôn [played on a reed]Ar.Ra.230 ; dance and sing, Pi. O.1.16.5. play amorously, prosallêlous X.Smp.9.2 ; metatinosLXX Ge.26.8 ; of mares, Arist.HA572a30.

-Orgia sacrifices to Aphrodite A.secret rites, secret worship, practised by the initiated, of the Cabeiri and Demeter Achaia, most freq. of the rites of Dionysus, Cogn erdō, rhezō, cf. ergon, orgeōn.

Kukleo whirl round and round, encompass [959] Chorus Let the chorus sing likewise and praise the Olympian gods in their pious transport. It's wrong to suppose that, because I am a woman and in this temple, I am going to speak ill of men; [966] but since we want something fresh, we are going through the rhythmic steps of the round dance for the first time. Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,
        and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him,
        and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

THE PROPHECY OF MOCKING JESUS:

Jeremiah 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee,
        hath pronounced evil against thee,
        for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah,
        which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger
        in offering incense unto Baal.

Jeremiah 11:18 And the LORD hath given me knowledge of it, and I know it:
        then thou shewedst me their doings.

Jeremiah 11:19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter;
        and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying,
        Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living,
        that his name may be no more remembered.

Those who get a vision to MOCK JESUS in fulfillment of prophecy ALSO rush to remove CHRIST from their public confession.

-mansŭesco , I. Act., to tame, to make tame B. Trop., to render mild, gentle, or peaceable:
nam me jam ab orationibus dijungo fere, referoque ad mansuetiores Musas,Cic. Fam. 1, 9, 23: “ira,Ov. Tr. 3, 6, 23.—

dēlūbrum , i, n. de-luo, the place of expiation, cella [holy place as a house only for a god]noctu audita ex delubro vox est, etc.,Liv. 29, 18: so coupled with templa,id. 30, 20:
wickedly, profanely illūdo to play at or with any thing, to sport with, amuse one's self with (syn. colludo; cf. ludificor). 1. To make sport or game of, to jest, mock, or jeer at, to ridicule (class.).
1. To scoff or mock at, to make a laughing-stock of, to ridicule ipsa praecepta (rhetorum),Cic. de Or. 1, 19, 87: “voces Neronis, quoties caneret,Tac. A. 14, 52: verbis virtutem superbis, Verg. A. 9, 634.—
Mūsa , ae, f., = Mousa, I.a  muse, one of the goddesses of poetry, music,
Musarum delubra,Cic. Arch. 11, 27: “hic Musarum parens domusque Pieria, Mela, 2, 3, 2: crassiore Musā,
A. A song, a poem: “musa procax,Hor. C. 2, 1, 37

koma A. deep sleep, “autō . . malakon peri kōma kalupsaIl.14.359; “ē me . . malakon peri kōm' ekalupsenOd.18.201; kakon de he kōma kalupteiHes.Th.798; “hupnou k.Theoc.Ep.3.6: metaph., of the effect of music, Pi.P.1.12.
2. Medic., lethargic state, coma, “kōma sunekhes, oukh hupnōdesHp.Epid.3.6
Dumb means the inability to MEDITATE on what is going on. 
cōgĭto The command is to SPEAK the Word and MEDITATE in the heart: not to make music. Cogitation in a rational sense can be stopped by (d). With de: “cogitavit etiam de Homeri   carminibus abolendis,

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isa 53:7

Oppressed is from the Hebrew:

Nagas (h5065) naw-gas'; a prim. root; to drive (an animal, a workman, a debtor, an army); by impl. to tax, harass, tyrannize: - distress, driver, exact (-or), oppress (-or), * raiser of taxes, taskmaster.

The burden Jesus died to remove was:

Phortizo (h5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to load up (prop. as aa vessel or animal), i.e. (fig.) to overburden with ceremony (or spiritual anxiety): - lade, be heavy laden.

Phoros (h5411) for'-os; from 5342; a load (as borne,) i.e. (fig.) a tax (prop. an individ. assessment on persons or property; whereas 5056 is usually a gen. toll on goods or travel): - tribute.

pherō   pherō  2.  carry away as booty or prize, enara, teukhea, Il.6.480, 17.70; “aiga leonte ph.13.199; deipnon ph., of Harpies, A.Eu.51; “enekhura bia ph.Antipho 6.11; in the phrase pherein kai agein (cf. “agō1.3), IG12.69.19; pheronta ē agonta Lex ap.D.23.60; “ai ka . . agē ē pherēLeg.Gort.5.37; “hērpazon kai epheronLys.20.17; keirōn ē pherōnIG12(9).90.10 (Tamynae, iv B. C.); “ai tis ka . . pherei ti tōn en ta hiara gaTab.Heracl.1.128; of a divorced wife, “ai de ti allo pheroi andros, pente statērans katastasei kōti ka pherē autonLeg.Gort.3.2; pherein alone, rob, plunder,theōn hiera E.Hec.804; “allēlousTh.1.7; abs., SIG38.23 (Teos, v B. C.):—Pass., “pheromenoi Bakkhōn hupoE.Ba.759:—Med. in same sense, “enaraIl.22.245; “pelekeas oikonde ph.23.856; “aterpea daitaOd.10.124, cf. 15.378.

ena^ra
, ōn, ta, (enairō
A.arms and trappings of a slain foe, spoils, “pherein e. brotoentaIl.6.480; “pheromai8.534; poll' e. Trōōn taken from them, 13.268; so “e. brotoenta Dolōnos10.570: generally, spoil, booty, tēn [phormigga] “aret' ex enarōn9.188, cf. 6.68, Hes.Sc. 367.--Ep. word (used by S.Aj.177 (lyr.)) for Trag. skula, laphura.
phorm-igx , iggos, ,
A.lyre, freq. in Hom., esp. as the instrument of Apollo, “phormiggos perikalleos hēn ekh' ApollōnIl.1.603, cf. 24.63, Od.17.270, Hes.Sc.203; of Achilles, “phrena terpomenon phormiggi ligeiē kalē daidaleēIl.9.186; with seven strings (after Terpander's time), heptaktupos, heptaglōssos, Pi.P.2.71, N.5.24; “antipsallōn elephantodeton ph.Ar.Av.219 (anap.).
2. ph. akhordos, metaph. for a bow
KAIROS the Demon son of Zeus like HERMES was the god of thieves and liars.
keirō , fut. Theoc.14.46; v. khrōs 1.2, egkuti; shear sheep, “makhairai kourides, hais keiromen ta probata kai tous poimenas3. metaph., 'fleece', plunder, “tēn mammēnHerod.3.39.
2. ravage a country, esp. by cutting down crops and fruit-trees, “to pedionHdt.5.63; “temenosId.6.75, cf. OGI765.10 (Priene); “tēn gēnHdt.6.99, Th. 1.64; “khōranAen.Tact.15.9; destroy, “polinCall.Fr.1.60 P.; also, clear, of pioneers, “orosHdt.7.131:—Pass., of a country, to be ravaged, karēnaiId.4.127, cf.
3. ekeire polukerōn phonon slaughtered many a horned beast by hewing, S.Aj.55.
1. tear, eat greedily, of beasts, keirei t' eiselthōn bathu lēion onos] Il.11.560; of fish, “dēmon . . epinephridion keirontes21.204; of vultures, “hēpar ekeironOd.11.578, cf. Luc.DDeor. 1.1, DMort.30.1.
MAKING JESUS DUMB BEFORE THE SLAUGHTER FULFILLED

Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,
        and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him,
        and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
Matthew 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
Matthew 27:31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him,
        and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

Empaizō , fut. to be deluded  II. sport in or on, “hōs nebros khloerais e. leimakos hēdonaisE.Ba. 866 (lyr.); tois khoroisin e. to sport in the dance, Ar.Th.975; “ gumnasiōLuc.Lex.5.
-Prospaizô , 2. abs., sport, jest, 3. laugh at, make fun or sport ofsing to the gods, sing in their praise or honour, 2. banter, tous rhêtoras

2 Peter 3 Marks of the End Time Mockers

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may
        be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets,
        and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

That is the CURRICULUM for DISCIPLES who attend the School of the Word and not pagan ceremonial legalism

2 Peter 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first,
        that there shall come in the last days scoffers,
        walking after their own lusts,

LEADER OF THE CHORUS

-Aristoph. Thes.[947] Let us now devote ourselves to the sports which the women are accustomed to celebrate here, when time has again brought round the mighty Mysteries of the great goddesses, the sacred days which Pauson himself honours by fasting and would wish feast to succeed feast, that he might keep them all holy. Spring forward with a light step, whirling in mazy circles; let your hands interlace, let the eager and rapid dancers sway to the music and glance on every side as they move. - 

Great Goddesses:

Paizo dance, play a game,  4. play on a musical instrument, h.Ap.206: c. acc., Pan ho kalamo phthongapaizôn [played on a reed]Ar.Ra.230 ; dance and sing, Pi. O.1.16.5. play amorously, prosallêlous X.Smp.9.2 ; metatinosLXX Ge.26.8 ; of mares, Arist.HA572a30.

-Orgia sacrifices to Aphrodite A.secret rites, secret worship, practised by the initiated, of the Cabeiri and Demeter Achaia, most freq. of the rites of Dionysus, Cogn erdō, rhezō, cf. ergon, orgeōn.

Kukleo whirl round and round, encompass [959] Chorus Let the chorus sing likewise and praise the Olympian gods in their pious transport. It's wrong to suppose that, because I am a woman and in this temple, I am going to speak ill of men; [966] but since we want something fresh, we are going through the rhythmic steps of the round dance for the first time. Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,
        and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him,
        and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

Donnie Cruz Letter to the Madison

Donnie.Cruz.The.Trinity.Debunked.html

Questions or comments for Donnie Cruz

Earl.Lavender.Christian.Spiritual.Formation

Once-Christian Universities discovered a New Hermeneutic (Means just translation) which, as prophesied, repudiates God the Father, the God the Son.
Through Jesus, God Himself spoke to His people during His lifetime.
          Now God speaks through the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit will teach you all things,
        will call to your memory the things Jesus said,
        will guide you into all truth,
        will speak what He hears from the Father,
        will tell you what is yet to come,
        and glorify Christ as He reveals Christ to you
THAT  BLASPHEMES JESUS CHRIST WHO FORMED HIS OWN KINGDOM AND LEFT HIS OWN "LAST WILL AND TESTIMONY." HE DIED TO PUT THAT WILL INTO EFFECT AND ORDAINED APOSTLES TO PUBLISH THAT WILL.  ONLY A VERY PROFANE PERSON WOULD ALTER THE WILL EVEN OF AN EVIL PERSON.

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
        All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
        baptizing them in the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt. 28:20 Teaching them to OBSERVE all things whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU:
        and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the WORLD. Amen.

JESUS DEFINED HOLY SCRIPTURE AS THE PROPHETS AND OTHER PROPHECIES CONCERNING ME.
Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom [SPIRIT] of God,
        I will send them prophets and apostles,
        and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Eph. 2:20 And are built upon [Educated in the ekklesia]
        the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
         Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
        as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets;
        and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the WORDS
        which were spoken before by the HOLY PROPHETS,
        and of the commandment of us the APOSTLES of the Lord and Saviour:

Jesus was sent into the world to seek and save a small band of LOST SPIRITS: they are sons FROM GOD. SPIRIT is a parable of figurative to, as Jesus said "God HIDES from the Wise or Sophists who are those who SPEAK their own word proving them to be Sons of the Devil. He also HIDES from the singers, instrument players, actors or PAY TO PLAY.

The Spirit OF Christ is not another God. God puts His Spirit or Mind into WORDS required for humanoids--including theologians--go hear God.

John 6:63 It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth;
        the flesh profiteth nothing:
        the WORDS that I SPIRIT unto you, they are
SPIRIT, and they are life.

Spiritual Formation was forced by Wives of PROFESSORS who could intimidate feeble men to claim that they were really GOD standing in their Holy Places.  The SPIRIT is from God, is not subject to MECHANICAL and merchandised ANTICS of Sillen Women .

Their BOAST is blaspheming God and Jesus and literally claim that NEITHER were able to forsee CONTINGENCIES of THEIR sudden new age:

Isa. 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid:
        have not I told thee from that time,
        and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses.
        Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Earl Lavender etal calls God a liar: they claim that the MAN Jesus was a God and the SPIRIT or BREATH of God is another God.

Is. 44:9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.

Is. 44:10 Who hath FORMED a god, or molten a graven image
        that is profitable for nothing?
  [A labyrinth is such an image of Divination]

Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation,
        and took upon him the FORM of a servant
        and was made in the likeness of men

Spiritual Formation FOR SALE AT A HIGH price never intends to form ministers  who are SERVANTS of others

2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of THIS world
        hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
        lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
        who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Col. 1:15 Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Eph. 4:23 And be RENEWED in the SPIIRT of your mind;

Col. 3:10 And have put on the new man,
        which is
RENEWED in knowledge after the IMAGE of him that created him: 

SPIRITUAL FORMATION INCLUDES DIVINATION BY MEANS OF THE LABYRINTH AND YOUR OWN WORK
 
Labyrinth.At.ACU.jpgThe Image of Divination at Lipscomb:
helix
hai kinēseis kai helikes tou ouranouArist.Metaph.998a5
4. coil of a serpent, E.HF399(lyr.)

when you trill the lyre
Elelizô  --2. Med. and Pass., move in coils or spires, of a SERPENT, “tēn d' elelixamenos pterugos labenIl.2.316; ep' autou (sc. telamōnos)“ elelikto drakōn11.39, cf. A.R.4.143; “speiras opheōn elelizomenēAr.Fr. 500. Rev 13
1) Christian Mysticism
Contemplative spirituality has taken the church by storm. This issue is nolonger relegated to the fringe elements of Christianity. No denomination
is immune to its effects, despite the fact that it is the legacy of Roman
Catholic monks who merged Eastern spirituality with Christianity. We will
consider several of the most prominent practices of this “Christian”
mysticism, such as contemplative prayer, the prayer labyrinth, yoga, lectio

Sun Goddesses were frequently psychopompes, and the LABYRINTH was itself connected to the Sun. It's entrance was carefully faced East to catch the first sunlight of the day. Patricia Monaghan's research has also shown that the LABYRINTH accurately charts the Sun's path in the sky in the far North. Travelling the LABYRINTH made rebirth possible, whether if be by the Goddess leading the dead from its centre beneath the ground, or the priestess Ariadne guiding initiates through it for a spiritual rebirth.

Winding up the thread originally recreated the globe of the Sun, rebirthing the Sun Goddess herself. The ubiquitous pools near LABYRINTH or Cretan Goddess temples were probably meant to act as mirrors. The Sun's reflection was used for divination, rather than the endless circling of the fish.

multĭ-plex , ĭcis, adj. multus-* plica (multīplex, Lucr. 2, 163; 4, 208; n. plur. multiplica, Gell. 19, 7, 16), I.that has many folds (class.).

I. Lit.: “alvus est multiplex et tortuosa,Cic. N. D. 2, 54, 136.—
II. Transf. A. That has many windings or concealed places: “vitis serpens multiplici lapsu et erratico,Cic. Sen. 15, 52: “domus,the LABYRINTH, Ov. M. 8, 158.—B. In implied comparisons, manifold, many times as great, far more: “id efficiebat multiplex gaudium rei,Liv. 7, 8, 1: “multiplex caedes utrimque facta traditur ab aliis,” i. e. far greater than I state it, id. 22, 7, 3: “praeda,id. 2, 64, 4.—
la^burinth-os [u^, ho,
A. LABYRINTH or MAZE, a large building consisting of numerous halls connected by intricate and tortuous passages: in Egypt, Hdt.2.148, cf. Str.17.1.37; in Crete, Call.Del.311, D.S.1.61: pl., “spēlaia kai en autois oikodomētoi laburinthoiStr.8.6.2; name of a building at Rome, IG14.1093; also at Miletus, Milet.7.56, Supp.Epigr.4.446 (iii/ii B. C., pl.).
2. prov. of tortuous questions or arguments, “hōsper eis l. empesontes, oiomenoi ēdē epi telei einai perikampsantes palin hōsper en arkhē . . anephanēmen ontesPl.Euthd.291b; laburinthōn skoliōtera D.H.Th.40; “logoi laburinthois homoioiLuc.Bis Acc.21; “logōn laburinthoiId.Icar.29; of ant-hills, Gal.UP1.3; of the rete mirabile Galeni, Id.5.608; of Lycophron's poem. AP9.191; as name of a philosopher, Luc.Symp.6.
II. any wreathed or coiled up body, einalios l. the twisted sea-snail, AP6.224 (Theodorid.); ek skhoinōn l. bow-net of rushes, Theoc.21.11
nōn not by any means: Dissumulation, secret,  synonyms: pretense, dissembling, deceit, dishonesty, duplicity, lying, guile, verba conclusa: adservari

nōn not by any means multĭ-plex  A. That has many WINDINGS  or concealed places: “vitis serpens multiplici lapsu et erratico,Cic. Sen. 15, 52: “domus,the LABYRINTH, Ov. M. 8, 158.— I.f ull of turns or windings, tortuous, “potestates verborum, [craftiness, powers]

ŭba , at tuba terribili sonitu taratantara dixit,  Opposite a SINGLE blow.
b. Sonorous, Tibicines epic poetry, Mart. 8.3, 22; 8, 56, 4; Mart. 10.64 c. A lofty style of speaking
II. Trop.: “tuba belli civilis,” i. e. exciter, author, instigator of Civil War, Cic. Fam. 6, 12, 3: “rixae,[strife, contention] Juv. 15, 52.
pla^n-aō ,
2. lead from the subject, in talking, D.19.335.
3. lead astray, mislead, deceive, ē gnōmē plana; S.OC316, cf. Pl.Prt.356d, Lg.655c, Theognet. 2.2, Men.Pk.79 ; “ton okhlonEv.Jo.7.12; “to aoriston planaArist.Rh. 1415a14; “ta planōntaId.Mete.347b35 ; planōn tēn exodon, of the Labyrinth, Apollod.3.1.4.

II. Pass., wander, stray, “
b. c.acc.loci, planētheis tēnde barbaron khthona having wandered over it, E.Hel.598 ; “pasan gēnPlu.Luc.34: c.acc. cogn., pollous heligmous planōmenoi wandering about as in a LABYRINTH, X.Cyr.1.3.4.

Prepared for the members of the Madison Church of Christ

By ConcemedMembers
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/sundayschoolinexilecom/what-happened-at-madison-this-week-the-timeline-pa-t221.html

Lipscomb University Radical Trinity with Holy Spirit required to make Father-Son Intelligible
Lipscomb University The Holy Spirit OF God is not the Head of the Church Replacing Jesus christ


WHAT HAPPENED AT THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST?

So you, son of man. I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for me.

Ezekiel 33:7

1ST EDITION

INDEX

PREFACE

BACKGROUND MATERIAL

SADDLEBACK-THEPURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH NIGHTMARE...............................................................................3

THE CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE FACILITATES THE COMMUNITY CHURCH TAKEOVER OF

THE CHURCHES OF CHRIST............................................................................................................................21

THE COMMUNITY CHURCH......................................................................................................................................23

THE PEOPLE'S CHURCH-A WAYWARD VESSEL....................................................................................................25

WILLOW CREEK....HEGELIAN DIALECTIC AND THE NEW WORLD ORDER........................................................28

TIMELINE- WHAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK AT MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST?....................................................29

DEACONS BEG FOR ANSWERS & THE ELDERS RESPOND.....................................................................................34

CONCERNED MEMBERS LETTER TO CONGREGATION...........................................................................................39

THE FINAL REPORT AND VOTE TOTALS....................................................................................................................41

COMMENTS WRITTEN ON THE VOTING BALLOTS....................................................................................................48

WHO IS LARRY SULLIVAN & THE STRAUSS INSTITUTE?.........................................................................................50

TRANSCRIPT OF BEN JONES’ REMARKS & CLOSING PRAYER...............................................................................51

TRANSCRIPT OF TOM HADDON’S CLASS - HOW TO TRANSITION THE MADISON CONGREGATION TOWARD SADDLEBACK AND HOLY ENTERTAINMENT..............................................................................................................54

INTERVIEW WITH GARY McDADE OF THE GETWELL CHURCH OF CHRIST..........................................................61

BOB JOHNSON ON “THE COVENANT OF MEMBERSHIP”..........................................................................................66

DAVID LIPSCOMB ON CHURCH AUTHORITY..............................................................................................................68

A STUDY OF THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST ELDERS & THEIR ACTIONS.....................................................69

TO THE ELDERS OF 683 CHURCHES OF CHRIST IN THE CHANNEL 5 VIEWING AREA........................................71

ORDER FORM................................................................................................................................................................72

Read updated editions at: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/thebook

Thank you to all the people that helped us. A special thanks to Kenneth Sublett at www.pineycom.com

*DISCLAIMER* Articles from outside sources have not been edited, we made no attempt to correct spelling or grammar. All articles reproduced by permission of their owners.

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PREFACE

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on. Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened. Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60-year-old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ. It thrived for many years on the vision of its elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtedly came from the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm. They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ. The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings, planters, seeders) they slowly started initiating change so the members never noticed it until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the un-churched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement.” Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been “as approved by God.” Ten of the last fifteen elders would begin to shed some doubt on that. The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand what's happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book. This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders

10 Not so Godly Elders

120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)

2,800 - 4,000 church "members"

2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)

Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)

Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, too many to count)

***************

SADDLEBACK- THE PURPOSE-DRIVEN CHURCH NIGHTMARE!

"everything is done so that the people really won’t understand what is happening"

"Right, the other thing they do, is that they will split the service and they will have a traditional service for the elderly people who don’t want to go into these changes and then they will have a second, more contemporary service for the youth"

Comments added to beginning by Despatch Editor...W. B. Howard

Extract from Despatch Magazine Vol. 13:2 [June 2001] Entire magazine online

If our readers absorb no more than this article from the whole of the June Despatch, then they would have done well!

We urge you to take especial note of the following material, as it contains info. Which is almost unbelievable! When we listened to the audio tapes from which we have gathered the material herein, I had a strong realization that we were listening to a description of the Antichrist system seeking to obliterate from the earth Biblical Christianity and the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! This is something so innovative and efficient that one is immediately enlightened to the fact that brilliant brains have planned all this out, and that really no group of men could be so blasted clever! Behind this planning an ancient, evil conductor holds the baton to which tune these people are playing. What am I getting keyed up about here? RICK WARREN and the “Purpose-Driven Church” programs for church expansion!!! Also heavily interacting is BILL HYBELS and his church expansion programs. We will give our readers the following transcript, straight from the audios of RADIO LIBERTY, USA, with Dr Stanley Monteith interviewing Robert Klenck, tapes entitled, “Marketing Christianity” One and Two.

A business consultant, who has been working with the international bankers, has designed the Purpose-Driven Church programs. Robert Klenck reveals a sinister involvement with the Rockefellers. The robbing of the Gospel of such matters as awareness of sin, need to repent and become righteous in God’s enabling, the sacrifice of Christ’s Blood for remission of sin, separation from the evil world etc is what makes the “success” of the Purpose-Driven Church program possible. Therefore we Bible Christians are encountering a highly effective way of defeating Christianity by means of enticing churches to seek numbers, power, money (from tithes and donations etc), and very large buildings. The enticement includes the dialectic approach which makes “Christians” value “meeting the needs” of an ungodly society, instead of standing firm on the truths of God’s Word and obeying His commands - and knowingly preaching unpopular messages which lead to spiritual repentance. The “success” in the world’s eyes can be very great by giving way to these business programs, the masses are flocking to be in churches which bring a popular message, give them rock music, lovely buildings and accommodating, pleasant, worldly- wise preachers. These programs are here in Australia, believers. Already in the USA some 150,000 pastors have been trained up in these awesomely powerful brainwashing programs. The most alarming matter presented by Robert Klenck is the revealing of the PROFILING and DATA BASING of congregations for the political powers of the New World Order. Also the COVENANTS which people sign which bind them to the Purpose-Driven Church programs - they will refuse to turn against these Change-Agents because the naive congregations feel they will be denying Christ Jesus if they do so!

Dean Gotcher is mentioned in this transcript we have a video of this available taken from the NTSC format to our PAL version. ($10 including postage and handling within Aust.)

Email: iardeanqotcher@vahoo.com <mailto:iardeanqotcher@vahoo.com> For enquiries of Dean Gotcher himself.

Our Alpha Expose material relates both to this transcript and Dean Gotcher ... another brain washing technique. Material available from our site, use the online search engine or write to us for details.

[Segments have been removed that were unimportant to the subject i.e. extraneous chatter.]

TRANSCRIPTION OF AUDIO TAPE - JUNE. 2001.

SIDE ONE OF TAPE NUMBER 1.

DR. STANLEY MONTEITH WITH ROBERT KLENCK.

title MARKETING CHRISTIANITY.

INTRODUCTION BY DR. MONTEITH -

his background as an orthopedic surgeon. Dr Monteith introduces Dr. Robert Klenck.

topic: “SELLING CHRISTIANITY.

There is a conscious, organized effort to change the message and the music of the Christian Church - to make it more acceptable to the world. Well, I always thought Christianity was supposed to transform the world, but of course if you look you can see what’s happening today and you look at the statistics on divorce in the church - well, it is just as much in the church as it is outside the church - maybe even more. As far as abortion, as far as so many other things that go on, there is not much difference between the church and society as a whole.

Is that what God intended? I thought that Christianity was supposed to transform individuals and not make them more like the world. One thing that happened, and I think increasingly I hear this from across the country, is that the music of the church has changed and instead of the great hymns of Christendom now we have a rock band and a loud beat because of course, it will appeal to the young people. We justify that because we want to get the young people into the church and that of course we talk about things like sin. Oh we don’t want to tell people they are sinners. After all that’s going to make them feel bad about themselves and hurt their self-esteem.

In fact, apparently Robert Schuller, who is a very, very successful minister, has said “You know, you would never want to tell them they were a sinner”, and so we no longer talk about hell or damnation or the fact that we really need a Savior - we make ourselves feel good about ourselves and that is going to get us into church. But is it going to change our lives? Is it going to transform society?

Well, we are going to be talking about this. Dr. Klenck has done a lot of work, a lot of study on this and he is one of the most articulate spokesmen on this most important of the subjects.

Bob, (Dr. Klenck,) I thank you for being with us this evening.

(For the benefit of transcription, Dr. Monteith will be identified as D.M. and Dr. Klenck as B.K.)

B.K.: You are very welcome.

D.M.: Bob has worked with us, his wife Tammy has been working with us but she is not going to be with us tonight. She is into a lot of other very, very important issues. But why don’t you tell our listeners how you got involved in this. Why have you put the time and study into this and of course, what you found so you just go ahead and just start telling us why you have began to study this so called “Church Growth Movement” that is to make Christianity more palatable to people and bring them into the church.

B.K.: Back in 1993 is when the Lord drew us to Him and we became saved and then shortly after that we were in a small Baptist Church and this was in 1994. We were baptised there and then the pastor started to bring some changes into the church. He brought in material from Pastor Rick Warren apparently he had gone to some conferences with Pastor Warren and was really touting his material, touting his (Rick Warren’s) whole programme and implementing all of it in a very rapid fashion at the church. He (the pastor) was telling us stories about how the little small church was going to grow to huge numbers and also was boosting me into leadership. He wanted me to be, sort of, his right hand man and be close to him from the ground floor and twenty years from now we would be able to look back and look on this huge ministry and say that we had been there, you know, right from the beginning all along.

But quite a few changes started to happen in the church. The music was changing - was part of it, bigger changes that he was doing, he took the pews out of the sanctuary and replaced those with chairs. They restructured, what they called ‘discipleship’ and they started to put us on tracks to leadership - we had to go through courses and they implemented ‘101’, ‘201 ’ and ‘301 ’ courses that they wanted everybody in the church to be involved with the courses and they would do assessments at the end, tests and tests and assessments of us, also required that people sign covenants in order to move on to the next level which of course in the Scripture we are commanded not to sign any covenants because it says that let our yes be yes and our nay be nay any more than this comes of evil.

D.M.: Alright, now of course did you notice that they were sort of changing the structure of the service, in other words -and the minister, instead of coming in a coat and tie was coming in more casual dress and people certainly were encouraged, at least indirectly, to be casual in their approach to the services?

B.K.: Yes, that is a very big part of it as well, is the right to not be intimidating to so called ‘seekers’ - unchurched people - churched and unchurched people trying to bring in more unchurched and again trying to make it so that it was more of a ‘comfortable’ - more of an entertaining type of service.

They started to bring in more drama - actually, even the day that we were baptised - the pastor dramatised the point -actually chained himself to the pulpit - he was chained to the pulpit during the entire service. It wasn’t until somebody actually brought the key - it was ‘Jesus Christ' and unlocked him from the ‘bondage’ of his chains - things like that.

D.M.: What you are getting was more of entertainment rather than relying upon the Christian message. Entertainment -things that would hold people’s attention, a drama, a video, a television and things of that sort. Is that what they were sort of getting into?

B.K.: Right.

D.M.: What about dance and other things of that sort?

B.K.: Well we weren’t there all that long, so we saw a lot of these being implemented and then we left because - the main reason we left was 2 reasons:

(1) That he was going away from deep Scriptural teaching - much more superficial messages. He would give a hand out which had a few ‘fill in blanks' and basically once you fill in the four blanks which were on handout, that meant the sermon was over.

D.M.: But of course now, wasn’t this really trying to get people into church - wasn't the motivation behind it certainly a good one, in other words, that if we can get people into church, why then of course, we can get them the Gospel after that.

B.K.: Ostensibly, that’s what is stated.

D.M.: Of course, weren’t a lot of the courses - what happened in these courses - that you had to take ‘101, ‘201 ’ and ‘301’?

(D.M. states on the tape that these course numbers are ‘101’, ‘102’ and ‘103, where in B.K.’s introduction they are different - have altered the transcription to agree with B.K. J.S.). Did that take you into the Gospel itself?

B.K.: Some of it did. Some of it was around the Gospel, but then it was more geared, especially in the ‘301’ course towards ‘spiritual gifts assessments’ where they are actually doing psychological profiles on the people in the congregation and finding out where your strengths and where your weaknesses are and then trying to motivate you to use your areas of strength in ministry. So at the - the nicest way to say it, I guess, was that it was fitting people to the task which was o.k. However, the more sinister side of it is that they are actually doing personality profiling on people and data basing people and sharing this information with other agencies.

D.M.: Other agencies - within the church, of course?

B.K.: Well no, Governmental agencies.

D.M.: Wait a minute now, why would the church share anything with the government agency?

B.K.: Well, in order to first maintain 501C3 tax exempt status and we are seeing this more and more as the church is being partnered with the government so called ‘faith based’ organisations in order to dole out social programmes for the U.S. government. Both political parties have been involved with that, currently President Bush is pushing hard for this.

D.M.: Jesse Jackson, of course has been using that scam for a long time. He did very, very well. In fact, his mistress was very happy because he was paying for her salary and her accommodations out of the money he had apparently, most of it coming from Government grants to his multiple ministries. But be that as it may. Of course, does something like this work? In other words, does it have an impact on people beginning to come to the church more and more? Did the church begin to grow?

B.K.: It did begin to grow but I would not call it good growth. The youth group was the biggest amount of growth and the kids that were involved were pretty rebellious youth and were not really being challenged in the youth groups to live Godly lives.

D.M.: But of course, they were coming to church, weren’t they and at least hearing something about Jesus Christ? Or were they just sort of coming to church because it was entertaining?

B.K.: For the most part, it was entertaining and they did youth trips and did ice-skating and various areas that they would pay for with the church’s funds that was certainly a drawing card. Very little with respect to exposure to the Gospel, again really the command to lead Godly lives and I remember even one episode where one of the fathers in the church took his 16 year old daughter down to have a tattoo for her sixteenth birthday. And that was sort of common type of things we saw going on there.

D.M.: But of course, the children were entertained and it at least got them out of the streets. Did they sort of justify that at least they were not just hanging around in gangs; at least they were coming to church? Was that the type of rationale for what was going on?

B.K.: Right! That was a lot of the rationale - which was a very pragmatic approach but unfortunately, again, as Christians, we are supposed to be in the world but not of the world and we are supposed to be again salt and light to the world. We are supposed to be different and these kids were not being told to hold up that standard and not being pushed or convicted at all of their activity to change and to live Godly lives.

D.M.: Of course, you left the church - do you know what has happened to it since you have left - has it grown since then or is it still pretty much like it was?

B.K.: It has grown, and then actually the pastor recently has left to become a church planter. I think he has gone to Ohio or somewhere to begin planting churches.

D.M.: All right, now of course you have had to find another church and did you eventually find a church where you felt comfortable?

B.K.: We did for a while, found for about 5 years and clearly the teaching there is much more - well it is through the Bible and that is what we were really pushing the pastor to do. We had, in the church where we got saved we had been

............expositionally and unfortunately that small church folded and that is why we went to the second church. But

we had a thirst for expositional teaching.

D.M.: By expositional teaching - what, just the Word of God?

B.K.: By verse and then along, and then going in depth to what other verses would correspond with other areas of the Bible that would correspond with the verse that we would go through.

D.M.: But of course, you were adhering to this concept that the Bible is the Word of God, the infallible Word of God and you wanted to get into that rather than perhaps the entertainment and the other sort of ‘good feeling’ part that comes with - is this what you call a ‘seeker friendly’ church?

B.K.: Yes.

[ A BRAINWASHING PROGRAM SWEEPS CHURCHESI]

D.M.: So then what happened? You have left this church and you find another church. What motivated you to begin studying the ‘seeker friendly' movement at Willow Creek and Saddle Back and all of this movement, which really is sweeping Christendom today?

B.K.: Correct. Right, we left first because we were being manipulated and pushed into leadership which we did not feel we were being led into by the Holy Spirit but in this 101, 201, 301 programme you needed to do it and there was very much pressure involved in it and we felt that we were not led by the Spirit.

Secondly, right, the lack of teaching of the Word of God so we really wanted to get into learning the Word of God and because we believe in the sufficiency of the Word - we believe that the Holy Spirit will lead us into ministry and if He sees fit and you don’t need this man made programme to do that. And a few years later, about 2-1/2 years later, we heard a man speak - Mr. Dean Gotcher.

D.M.: Dean is a good friend of ours and why don't you tell our listeners what Dean said that impacted on you?

B.K.: Right, well he taught us about his study which is about the Hegelian Dialectic and what the Hegelian Dialectic is -most simply stated as - a synthesising of two opposites and so in a ‘seeker friendly' church what you would see, is believers admixed with unbelievers and they would synthesise - that is coming to consensus where truth becomes somewhat in the middle and so basically what happens is the believer ends up moved very slightly away from his original position of moral absolute - the seeker or the unbeliever is moved slightly more towards faith and the people who are doing this movement think that is good enough and eventually they will come to faith through this process. But the thing that ends up sacrificed really is the truth of the Word of God, when it is proclaimed and when it is stated it is a fact and it is not questioned then some people, even when Jesus spoke, He talked about some believed, some scratched their heads and other ones turned away. That was the way that He always taught. He always taught it factually and it would either convict people or it would not convict people. It was never watered down or softened which was what the result is in this type of situation.

D.M.: Don't you think that people, ministers, who have taken this -1 firmly believe that they love the Lord, I think that they really want to be effective and want to be champions of the Word but isn't this more sold in a pattern that it is a technique that you hope will bring people to the Lord just by their association and coming to church and even if they are there, they will gradually begin moving towards Christianity. Not necessarily knowing the Word, not necessarily studying the Word, but it will sort of just come about.

B.K.: Exactly, exactly. So he spoke about this process and he stated that the church growth movement is based upon this process and so that’s what struck me, I said, well this somehow - this process was being used in this church that

we came out of -1 don’t know how, but somehow this ties in and that is what sparked my interest to investigate what was the roots of this whole idea - who were the foundational thinkers behind it, what where they thinking and what was their final goal? That is what has spurred by study.

D.M.: So, what have you found as you begin looking into it and I know you have done a great deal of work and I appreciate so much the material you sent me. Why don’t you just talk to the people in the audience because most of them are really unaware of the fact that this is a major movement that is sweeping Christendom today - it is based upon teaching you how to succeed sort of like Dale Carnegie or many of the motivational psychology programmed introduced into corporations and the business world. How to be more successful, how to accomplish what the corporation wants to accomplish. That is at least what they sell you in the business world.

Why don't you go into the background of what you have uncovered and how this is being, as it were, sold to so many good people, and many of the good people, I am convinced, really do love the Lord but they seem to put success before the Scriptures, as it were.

B.K.: Yes, absolutely. You have described it well because it is the exact same framework and type of s philosophy that the total quality management in the work place is based on that the motivational speakers and self-esteem speakers pronounce. They really stress measurable results so they look at measurable results as far as baptisms, number of people in the church, that is the reason they put the chairs in stead of the pews because they can count their membership each Sunday and see as to whether or not they are getting more people in the church.

They obviously study tithing patterns, in fact, one of the consultant groups called the Leadership Network even have several resources as to how to maximize the amount of tithings.

D.M.: Wait on a minute, I thought the Holy Spirit, or our Lord was supposed to motivate us to give. In other words, we are to give, you know, what we felt motivated to give but we are being manipulated to give to the church?

B.K.: Oh yes, absolutely, there is a book '44 Ways to Maximize - increase giving - in your church. There is many ... by George Barnard (sic) and other materials by John Maxwell all about maximizing the tithe and actually studying different ways getting an offering, getting a pledge, getting a pledge and an offering - they study all types of ways to again to maximize that because that is one of the measurable results.

D.M.: Now, how would you go about getting people to tithe?

B.K.: One of the things in these churches, if it is a smaller church and a consultant comes they will recommend that you build a fellowship hall first because if you build a fellowship hall first, then you can appeal to your congregation that we need funds to get a sanctuary and people - that really tugs at the heart strings stronger if you build the sanctuary first. Then it is much more difficult to get people to either pledge more money to get a fellowship hall because they feel that a fellowship hall is more of a ‘frill’ whereas a sanctuary is a necessity so they actually plan that on purpose.

D.M.: In other words, this is basically some sort of a business management concept.

[A UNITY OF NAMES.]

B.K.: Very much a business management concept - one of the major foundational thinkers - is one of the major thinkers in business management and that is Mr. Peter Drucker (sic). Peter Drucker, he is one of the three main people who helped in building Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church, he is also involved with Willow Creek, which is Bill Hybel's Church in Illinois. Saddleback Church is in ... California. Those are the two major sister churches, I would say, and they both actually are based on thinking from Robert Schuller and they admit they gathered information from him on how to start their churches up. And so Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral - they all began their churches by taking community surveys - surveying the community in what they wanted to get out of a church and then tailoring their church around those community needs and wants.

Rick Warren even admits that he was polling the people in his community that if the person said they were either actively attending the church or were a believer, then he stopped asking any more questions because he didn't want to colour the survey with those opinions. So he wanted to tailor his church only to the needs of lost sinners.

D.M.: O.K. Well that's good though - so if you want to get the lost sinners into the church, don’t we?

B.K.: Right, although the church is supposed to be for the perfecting of the saints, for the building up and edifying of the saints rather than for meeting the needs of the unbelievers and it is all even based on Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of needs which are basically the three lusts described in the Bible - the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Those are the basic hierarchy of needs though you are then tailoring your church after those types of needs.

D.M.: But of course, you do want to get the lost people into the church, don’t you? In other words, or perhaps do you want the Lord to motivate them to come or the Holy Spirit to cause them to want to seek for the Word and the truth?

B.K.: Again it is all a human management style as opposed to something that is led by the Holy Spirit whereas, right, the typical thing would be that your church would be a body of believers and you would invite somebody who was an unbeliever and you would invite them on a individual basis and you would be moved by the Holy Spirit to preach to them and tell them the Word and invite them to church and they would come in. But they would be coming in to the church, which is tailored around the feeding of the Word as the most important thing. In fact, we are even taught that the pastor who labours in the Word is worthy of double honour because dealing with the Word is so important.

So that would be the environment that somebody would come into as opposed to an environment where the message is going to be minimized and softened so as to make it so that it is unoffensive [sic].

D.M.: All right now, of course this Peter Drucker that you speak of, a management consultant and he works with big corporations, major business corporations.

B.K.: His management school is over here at Claremont Graduate University would be only about 10 miles away from us, actually says that his management style is humanistic and that he believes that it is a human enterprise and the humanist manifesto is the absolute opposite or antithesis of Christianity. They deny creation, they embrace evolution, they assert that religion is only involved - interactions between man and his environment, in other words, that man basically made is up of his own thinking. They deny the supernatural and they basically - their whole goal is a utopia on earth which is everybody getting along, everybody having freewill to do everything that they want to which includes free abortion rights, freedom to have euthanasia, free sexuality and basically creating a utopian earth in the absence of God. That is the humanist agenda and that is actually the foundational thinker that Peter Drucker is.

D.M.: But then of course if you wanted to apply these concepts - not the humanist concept is such that you describe but this technique towards expanding the church. Why would he do that? You would not think that a humanist, if he is indeed simply a humanist, would not be that interested in helping the church.

B.K.: Well again what he is helping the church do is that he is actually helping the church fit into this utopian goal. So he believes that the church can be an agent by which this end is accomplished, and he says specifically that organisations - he says to consider all the problems facing the world - look at world poverty, look at social inequalities and all of the bad things that happen. He says then managed solutions - is imperative that managed solutions be used in order to achieve these types of goals.

D.M.: Sort of like faith-based partnership - the government uses the church to reach its goal of government taking care of people, but of course the church fits into that.

END OF SIDE 1 OF TAPE 1.

START OF SIDE 2 OF TAPE 1.

D.M.: Bob, you were beginning to tell us about Peter Drucker, a humanist, apparently, who believes in basic humanist concepts who decided that he wanted to help the church to be more effective in meeting society’s needs, so let’s pick up the story from there.

B.K.: I was able to dig up his quote, and his quote is that the non-profit sector is where management today is most needed, where systematic principle, theory-based management can yield the greatest results fastest. Just think of the enormous problems facing the world - poverty, health care, education, international tension, and the need for managed solutions becomes loud and clear. So again he believes he can solve all of these world problems through managed solutions - and he never mentions Christ. He does claim to be a Christian. He claims to be an Episcopalian Christian and actually even in Christianity Today it says if you examine his writings that his writings say little other than that about his faith, in other words, he is tends to keep his ‘light’ under a bushel.

Clearly there is another quote that he has also, where he talks about the social universe. He says that the social universe has no natural laws and it is thus subject to continual change and he says then that what is thought to be factual today can then become misleading and actually completely confusing to you in no time at all. So he says as far as the social universe is concerned, as far as moral absolutes are concerned that there are no hard and fast rules -there are no moral absolutes. Those are hardly the words of a Christian man.

D.M.: No they certainly are not. In fact, that is increasingly the way the world is going - there is no right, there is no wrong, there is simply shades of gray as it were. And of course Christendom stands on the fact that there are absolutes, there is a right and a wrong because there is a God who has laid out His rules for mankind. But we seem to be getting away from that increasingly today and we make excuses for the criminal. We seem to be much more concerned about animal abuse than we are about taking the life of unborn children in the womb. A gentleman was recently sent to prison for 9 months because he had mistreated cats and I disapprove of mistreating animals but nothing is ever said about tearing living human beings and parting them from the womb. So there is something wrong about the way that society is going and you would think the church would of course be leading efforts to bring these things up and yet of course, many times the silence of the church is deafening.

[PETER DRUCKER AND WILLOW CREEK AND SADDLEBACK CHURCH ]

So why don’t you pick up the idea now - how did Peter Drucker get associated with Willow Creek and Saddleback Churches? And Is there a relationship?

B.K.: I don’t know just how he got affiliated with them in the first place, although again both of them acknowledge that he was with them in their formal stages and helping to influence them with respect to beginning their churches. In fact, Rick Warren, he said that three people who supported his church - he said Tom Patterson was one of the strongest supports along with Peter Drucker and Bob Buford (sic) of our purpose-driven church strategy in the formative years of Saddleback - so that is a quote from Warren. He said he was there right from the start.

D.M.: Buford - that name is familiar - where does he come in? Who is he?

B.K.: Right, he is a gentleman; he is actually the first president of the Drucker Foundation for Non Profit Management. He is the owner of Buford Television in Texas and he is a large businessman, an entrepreneur and he also wrote a book called “Half Time”. In that book he actually refers to Peter Drucker as the man who formed my mind and he says that in his office he has two main books - he has a Bible and he has Peter Drucker’s book. He uses his Bible for spiritual things and he uses Drucker’s book for worldly things - which my Bible says we are supposed to use the Bible for all of our affairs.

D.M.: I certainly would not want to argue with you there. Of course, then this idea has really caught hold. My understanding is that there are really tens of thousands of churches that have taken on this concept and of course it has really done - in sort of a stealth matter - they don’t really tell the congregation what they are going to do, they just sort of do it and one day the minister arrives without a coat - still got a tie and a white shirt on and then before long, maybe a month or two, he doesn’t even have a tie on and then it is really done very subtly.

Don’t they change the music very subtly - everything is done so that the people really won’t understand what is happening.

B.K.: Right, the other thing they do, is that they will split the service and they will have a traditional service for the

elderly people who don't want to go into these changes and then they will have a second, more contemporary service for the youth. So the pastor, in between services will take off his coat and tie and dress more casually for the second service. So there is a separation of the elderly people in the church and eventually they will either scatter or die off and then they can go to the contemporary service for everybody.

D.M.: All right, so we have seen this sort of thing happen. Is there a different message that’s preached between the two services? In other words, there is one that is parallel to the traditional message where sinners are saved by grace or is it sort of beginning to move into the same more - say - acceptable. I was going to say more ‘watered down'. Say acceptable to society type of service, are both services pretty much the same - one traditional and one is more acceptable.

[ GET RID OF BIBLICAL CHRISTIANS TO GAIN NUMBERS.]

B.K.: I believe that one remains more traditional. You have to realize that a lot of the elderly and more traditional people in the church are also a lot of the larger tithers to the church and so they don’t want to change things too dramatically as far as those people are concerned because they can lose a lot of their financial base. Although in some of the books - there is another book recommended by Rick Warren called “Transitioning - Leading Your Church Through Change” and that is written by Dan Southerland and in that book he talks about how his church went from 500 people when he implemented his programme that it dropped to 250 and now he has gone back up to about 3000 and that if he was to do it again, he would trade the 250 people for the church of 3000 in a New York minute. So he could not care less if he divided the church and got rid of the traditionally minded people because once he has this more acceptable gospel, this more acceptable gospel is also - it has a broad appeal.

D.M.: Of course, what about people in the churches -1 mean Robert Schuller who I think is probably the prototype of this. He has 4,000 usually in the Crystal Cathedral or 5,000 and two or three thousand outside. I had a friend of mind there who went to see it when they had Gorbachev there and he compared Gorbachev, the murderer of Afghanistan and he compared him with Abraham Lincoln and really praised this brutal man who should be up on more war-crimes trials for aggressive war.

When he was the premier when they were dropping bombs there in Afghanistan, which were shaped like toys, the little kids would pick them up and blow off their arms and legs, a war of attrition and terror carried out against the Afghan people when Michael Gorbachev was the president of or the dictator of Russia. It is the only reason they got out, it was not because of any altruism at all, they lost so many helicopters because we had given these surface-to-air missiles to the Afghans and they could shoot down the helicopter gun ships that were coming in and machine-gunning the civilians. Now that is why they got out but I mean when Robert Schuller invites Michael Gorbachev and compares him to Abraham Lincoln and yet the people were just going along with that. People were standing on their feet and applauding wildly when Gorbachev was introduced to the people.

Certainly Robert Schuller’s message appeals to people across the world and it is not one of sin and redemption - he certainly never talks about sin or that we are sinners saved by grace.

[HEGELIAN DIALECTIC - DEAN GOTCHER.]

B.K.: Yes, that is exactly right and this is the seduction that is happening in the church. This ‘softened’ message, which does not convict of sin and most of these pastors teach very little about sin. They even change the name of it - they either call it ‘wrong doing’ or ‘bad choices’ or ‘poor choices’, ‘mistakes’ - they also very much minimise the idea of a literal burning hell. So this softened message puts the church to sleep and then the church no longer is able to discern and what this whole Hegelian Dialectic - and that is what Dean Gotcher was teaching us was that repeating this process over and over again - with just a very subtle and slight watering down of it each time gradually puts you to sleep and again the Bible talks about people having their conscience seared with a hot iron. They are no longer able to discern at all.

So you bring in Michael Gorbachev into the church and people are cheering wildly. Here is a quote from Michael - “I am

not ashamed to say anywhere in public that I am a communist and believe in the socialist idea. I will die believing this and will pass into the next world believing this.” That's what he says and yet Schuller, when he was there last October 15th says “I know that he calls himself an atheist, but 11 years ago was one of the most powerful man in the world God used this atheist in a mighty way.” He was talking about how Michael had allowed Schuller's programme to be broadcast widely within the Soviet Union.

[ GORBECHEV AND ROBERT SCHULLER ]

The reason that Gorbachev allowed this to go into the Soviet Union is that he knew Communism has nothing to fear from the message that Robert Schuller has to preach.

D.M.: Well of course, the thing is if people are not convicted, they are not going to change. If Christianity is simply a ‘do-good’ religion, and a ‘feel good’ about yourself and feel good about other people and want to help other people, that of course is the philosophy - not of the Gospel according to Mark, but according to ‘Marks’.

B.K.: Right, that is a good point. The way that Gorbachev fits into all of this and this whole direction that this is heading to is that Gorbachev has his “State Of The World Forum” - my wife was actually able to attend that with a friend Joan Veon last September back at the United Nations Headquarters.

D.M.: What did she run into Joan Paris and Jeannie Solomon (sic) who were there?

B.K.: Yes, she did.

D.M.: They were representing us at Liberty here so you were in good company then.

B.K.: Yes, absolutely. In a small circle of good company and a large circle of bad company.

[ EVIL NEW WORLD ORDER MEN!]

D.M.: Some of the most evil men in the world were there at the World Summit Meeting which was held from September 2nd to I guess 8th or 10th - something like that. The world leaders, the financial and corporate leaders of the world were there along with Ted Turner and certainly Maurice Strong -1 don’t know whether he is a member of the State of the World Forum but he certainly was there working behind the scenes. He was a speaker, if I am not mistaken. Anyway, basically, Gorbachev is really one of the major players in this whole world spiritual movement because there are strong spiritual under-pinnings of what he says but the spiritualism he is talking about is certainly not the spiritual belief in Jesus Christ, but certainly strong ties into the occult.

[ ROCKEFELLER BROTHERS ]

B.K.: Right, and that is exactly where this all ties in, actually Stephen Rockefeller along with Gorbachev is another one of the authors of the Earth Charter and also the Rockefeller Brothers Fund funded a symposium organised by the Peter F. Drucker Foundation For Non-Profit Profit Management called The Emerging Partnership - New Ways in a New World. So Drucker - this is all about non-profit management and so it is all about getting the non-profits on board towards the New World Order. Gorbachev ties in, Schuller ties in, Drucker ties in - it ties it all in with the leadership networks and who Bob Buford founded the leadership network which is one of the largest church-consulting firms that helps to push this church growth type of movement into the churches. Drucker again formed Bob Buford’s mind - he was there in the formative stages of Rick Warren’s church - you know the picture is all beginning to ‘gel’.

D.M.: Of course we see Gorbachev, as you say, Stephen Rockefeller and Maurice Strong all joining hands together to write The Earth Charter, the plan for the New World with the commandments that will replace the 10 Commandments of old.

B.K.: Yes, and the Hegelian Dialectic is the means of getting - this is actually a form of brain washing and so you just get people doing this process, doing this small group face-to-face interactions where everybody says what they think and what they feel and then at the end everybody reaches a consensus.

D.M.: Now is this what these breakout groups - 101, 201, 301 - are small group/consensus groups?

B.K.: Those are leadership-training groups but then they do require part of the covenants you do have to sign in the covenant signing as you go through is that you do sign a covenant to be committed to purchase a paid-in small groups. And the small groups are facilitated meetings by trained facilitators and they water down the Word of God.

D.M.: Now, why would you have to sign a covenant? I mean, I would think that this is a voluntary thing - you go to church, you go to church because you want to - because you believe in it, but once you sign something - you know - it takes things down the line occur, things you don't agree with, but you have already signed an agreement for things you don't even understand what you are signing into or the implications as to where this is all leading. Isn't this sort of like taking a Masonic oath for things you don’t even know what Masonry is all about?

B.K.: Right! Actually, some of the diagrams that they use for the 101, 201 and 301 are actually concentric circles where you start out on the outside and start working your way in which is the structure of many of the secret societies. Like an onionskin where you keep going one layer deeper and deeper into the skin and closer to the core.

Absolutely - and that is one of the things that is much like a cult because the people then feel this great constraint that they cannot leave and so they feel locked in. I have talked with people on the phone about this all the time and they say - ‘But I signed’. I say ‘what are you going to do now - knowing what you know - you have to either please the Lord or you have to go along with the covenant which you signed that you know is not pleasing to the Lord. He will forgive you for signing that covenant and your breaking it if you are breaking it for all the right reasons.’

D.M.: Well of course this is exactly what happens when they get into Masonry. They are afraid to get out - they have sworn these oaths, all their friends are involved - you know, it is part of their way of life. Suddenly, to have to break with Masonry, you know, means you are breaking with the things that make life so pleasant. Of course, you may come under tremendous pressure if you do leave.

B.K.: Yes, this is the exact same type of thing and however, again they use the psychological argument against you that now you are denying Christ if you are denying us and you are turning your back on Him and so that is a tremendous psychological force that is being used.

D.M.: Now do all the churches require you to sign the covenant? Or is it just certain ones or is this just a standard approach that is being implemented all across the world today? All across America today, I should say.

[150,000 PASTORS TRAINED IN “PURPOSE-DRIVEN” PROGRAMMES - USA!]

B.K.: It is a very standard approach. We have heard of church after church that is doing this thing an they bring us their diagrams of their leadership programmes which are either the concentric circles or the other one is that it is a baseball diamond - the four stages of the process -101 through to 401 - all bases of a baseball diamond.

And so we see a pattern repeated over and over again. Pastor Warren has trained over 150,000 pastors and church leaders in this church growth principle.

D.M.: 150,000? 150,000?

B.K. Yes. And he has also sold more than a million copies of The Purpose Driven Church’ book.

D.M.: Well, that is a lot of people. Now, how many churches do you think there are in America today that have gotten into this altered form of Christianity? Because it really is a sort of a watered-down Christianity as a form of Christianity -uses a lot of the words of Christianity but of course as far as sin, damnation and the need for a Saviour, that is not the major thrust of the message, is it?

[CATHOLICS AND JEWS ARE BEING TRAINED ALSO.]

B.K.: Well that is correct, and actually, the organisational management - the style they are using for discipleship is

actually crossing not only denominations but is actually crossing faiths so it is seen in Catholicism, we see it in Jewish synagogues, we see it in other faiths as well. So it is obviously not a movement of the Holy Spirit if churches are not moved by the Holy Spirit at all or are completely contrary, for instance, the Jewish synagogue where people are not accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Clearly this is not a movement of the Holy Spirit but a man made organisational technique and again what the endplay will be is eventually it will be to where you can unify with people of other faiths and in order for this greater goal of world peace in the utopian society. It will water down Christianity where Christianity is no longer salt and light but is actually acceptable to the Muslin, acceptable to the Jew, acceptable to the Mormon; acceptable to all of these faiths, which are not - again - which are not true faith.

D.M.: I do see that this is part of the great apostasy. Are you concerned that this might be part of the great apostasy that is described in the latter days?

B.K.: Absolutely. I believe that it is. It is very wide spread.

D.M.: Do we have any idea? You said over 150,000 or 160,000 people trained - how many churches have gone this way?

B.K.: Huge numbers. I mean huge, huge numbers.

D.M.: You are talking about tens of thousands.

B.K.: Absolutely.

SIDE ONE OF TAPE NUMBER TWO.

D.M.: We are told Dr. Klenck, that this is going to change society. They are going to take back society for Jesus Christ. Is it working, is it succeeding - is there any place where this is changing our communities in society, making people better, making people more god-like?

B.K.: Well, again a lot of this appears good, for instance like one of the groups that is often tied with many of these churches is ‘Habitat for Humanity’ and the goal is very admirable if you take a needy family and help them to build a home and get them into it. The problem with it is that, in on the local level, people think they are doing a wonderful thing. However, 10% of the money goes to the international group ‘Habitat for Humanity International' and they were actually present at the ‘Habitat 2’ Conference at the United Nations back in Istanbul and so it also is something that is -again it is one of the goals of the United Nations which is ‘Shelter Equity’ and what they mean is they want to see everybody world-wide to have a home.

Now that’s fine, for us Americans it may mean actually putting other people into our homes in order to spread the wealth world-wide and of course we know that the U.N. agenda is all basically global socialism and they want to completely, even the United States - even lower our standard of living and make it even with a global standard of living.

Habitat for Humanity is a ecumenical organisation, they give the home without regard to the people’s faith and they don’t necessarily allow or encourage proselytising so it is again a deception on a local level and people from the local churches are - you know they have a heart for the Lord and they want to help and serve but they don't realise the bigger agenda that they are also funding, which is basically funding the demise of Christianity while they are doing it.

(Section of Radio Talk-back deleted.)

D.M.: Fine. Thank you so much. That is one of our supporters back in Louisiana. The question - are we going to have to go underground - or is the Pope Catholic? Of course the Pope is Catholic and of course the church is going to come under persecution here in America. In fact I am told that the Christians in China pray for persecution of the American Church to try to once again re-kindle that spirit of Christianity that they live under in China which has brought, they

estimate, to 80 million people close to the Lord.

They have a lot more Christians in China - real Christians - than we have here in America. We have an awful lot of ‘watered down’ people who go to church but not who are really willing to give their lives for the Lord. I wonder how many of you in the listening audience tonight would be willing to give your life for the Lord tonight?

The question that Roy raised is you know, are we going to have to go underground one day and are we going to have to begin to prepare for that right now?

B.K.: Well, we are in home church, and there are more and more people who are doing that. We have hymnbooks and we sing hymns. We don’t have anybody talented with musical instruments at this point, so we just sing and just have a expositional - that is chapter by chapter, verse by verse and we just go through the Bible and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth and it is a real blessing. It is just a small group and we are not concerned about numbers and we don’t have any tithings. We don't worry about motivations that way.

Until they stop allowing us to gather together, then we will go underground if we are not allowed to gather together. It is one of the most frustrating things for me because as I evangelise people and they come to faith, then where do you send them? And that is one of the biggest problems I have with these big evangelistic crusades like the Billy Graham or Greg Wories (sic) crusades is that they often send these people right off to Saddleback Church, they send them off

to all types of churches that are teaching all kinds of ......doctrines and all kinds of watered-down messages and so

you get them in and then you send them off to the wolves - and I have a real problem with that.

So I try to show them that the only thing that they can rely upon reliably is the Word of God and unfortunately, I think with the big mega-churches, so many of these pastors are on such pedestals that the people just look to them for everything and then even as I speak out about what these people are up to, a lot of them do not want to hear it because it is knocking the person that they have put on a pedestal is being knocked off that pedestal. We shouldn’t have anybody on a pedestal to start with.

D.M.: Amen to that. Well I agree with you totally. In fact before we found the church where we are going now, we had actually going for Bible studies down to a friend's house and then of course brought in some tapes from a very, very good minister, going through the Bible - verse by verse as you suggest. We are blessed in that the church is very, very small, but at least it is teaching the Scriptures and we are singing the psalms. I never thought I would enjoy singing the songs -1 never thought I would enjoy going to church for an hour and a half service and even end up by going to Sunday School before that but do you think there is a growing hunger for the Word of God and the realisation of what we are up against does tend to draw you closer to the Lord. I think if you can find a church like that you are very fortunate.

B.K.: And as many organisations as are exposed and have ties to the United Nations and you know - there are huge, huge numbers - the Southern Baptist Convention and again, Habitat for Humanity, which I have mentioned. So many of these big organisations have these ties that are really sinister so our tithing goes to very small ministries. Ministries that we know the person, personally, and they are doing it and the money is actually going to the Lord's work and so it is not these huge organisations like Focus on the Family and those that are tied in with all these others who have negative ties. We are still able to just around our local area give to needy people and help people out, help friends out.

You know there are many, many ways to spend your money for the Lord but it doesn’t have to go to a 501C3 organization necessarily.

DM.: And I just want to comment that in recent years, the Southern Baptist Association has really come under good leadership and that is why you hear these Texas Baptists have moved away from it and they are constantly being attacked.

They must be doing something right if they are being attacked by so many of the ‘liberals' today. So, we will just have to wait and see how that pans out. But I do believe that there are some really good people in positions of leadership in the Southern Baptist Association for the first time in many, many years.

u know you have been very outspoken bringing out this consensus, the Hegelian Technique that is really gotten into the church today to make it more acceptable - sell it like you would a bar of soap or something of that sort. We want a Christianity that is saleable, of course, it doesn't seem that we are brought alive by the Holy Spirit; we are relying upon man’s approach to spread Christianity. Would you agree with that?

B.K.: I would agree with that and although again so many of the pastors become seduced by this because the church consultant comes in and recommends that - well, we’ve got these techniques we know are successful because they are successful in the world, why not market Christianity and get a broad appeal and you will do things for the Lord.

You will get a large number of people in and you know, the more people that are saved, the better and which they don’t disagree with. But what they don’t understand that with that whole package, is the foundational thinkers behind it are driven by Satan and his end point is the destruction of the church. That’s what we need to be aware of, that this is not just a matter of being smart and using techniques that the world says are o.k. because these techniques are rooted in evil.

The Lord tells us in Matthew Chapter 7 or 17,1 think it is Matthew Chapter 7 that an evil root cannot bear good fruit and the roots of this are Satanic and we cannot have any part of it. It is leaven and any little bit of this in the church will destroy the church.

D.M.: Well, I share your concern. This is why I asked you to come on. You have been doing this for a long time. Have you come under any criticism or attack for doing, speaking out against this very successful marketing technique.

B.K.: Not dramatic, I mean clearly, whenever I speak it is controversial, especially when pastors who are mentioned who people think are godly men and you know, and are supporting their (the pastors) ministries and all these other aid organisations. For me to criticise them, they think that is just absolutely terrible.

Some of their typical responses is that we are ‘dividing the flock’ or that we are ‘causing dissention within the church’ or that we are ‘dividing the Body of Christ’, and so on. Others have said, one thing that is interesting because I have had a few letters from pastors who have gotten excerpts of letters from pastors in responses from them and interestingly they never challenge my facts.

They state that either I have twisted the facts so that the people who have made the statements that I have turned their words around so that to make them say something that they don’t really believe in or that I have gone in with a preconceived conclusion and then only added in those facts and only dug up those facts which support my preconceived conclusion. When quite on a contrary, the statements that I quote are very representative of the works.

In other words, when I quote Rick Warren and he says that pastors he thinks are the most under-rated groups of change agents today and all of his writings are about change technology and again this Hegelian Dialectic - this continual change. You know, for me to make that statement it is very representative of the rest of the work that he does.

D.M.: Of course, this idea of being a ‘change agent’ - in other words, this is an individual who has got to alter the perception of the people who follow them.

B.K.: Right. And the idea of a change agent is that they not only alter that person’s perception but they alter the perception without the person realising that they are being changed.

D.M.: What a cult leader does?

B.K.: Yes. Absolutely.

D.M.: But, I mean the thing that really disturbs me is - and we will get back on this, is the fact that it is done very deceptively. In other words, it happened so slowly that most people didn’t even realise what was happening. Little bit by little bit the music changed, you know - wonderful praise songs that I think some of the modern praise songs are really

wonderful and they really are praising. But then of course, in comes the increasing tempo and the beat and the changing of the beat itself. This begins to alter the physiological reaction of the people to the point where pretty soon the people are beginning to dance in the aisles of the church and I am seeing this and thinking ‘what in heavens name is going on?' But music can have almost a hypnotic effect on individuals, can't it?

B.K.: Absolutely. One of the ingredients that they use - the other thing that they use for deception in order to deceive the people, they overwhelm the senses - many of these churches have numerous video screens. Rick Warren's actually has 5 video screens up at the front of the sanctuary. They recommend that the pastor use a mobile microphone and move around a lot, walk around a lot and so what happens is again the senses are being overwhelmed as one comes into this whole kind of a circus atmosphere and so the discernment of the message is very difficult to discern exactly what is being said. So in the message the biggest thing is half-truths - in other words, God is a God of love is spoken but God as a righteous judge is not spoken.

Well, they can say that God is a God of love and they can say ‘check that out in the Bible' - all of that is true. But Peter Drucker himself says that the most important thing in communication is to listen to what isn’t being said. So he understands this technique and they use it dramatically. They overwhelm the senses and they only teach in half-truths. Even when we go to a court of law we are sworn at the bench to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth because you are not allowed to go and speak the truth if it is half-truth. You are not allowed to do that because you could manipulate a jury so the legal system understands that concept.

The other thing that happens then - like you said, the music tends to numb the senses and break down the barriers to accepting the message and then many of the messages are also subliminal. Lee Strobel (sic) spoke at the Saddleback Church while I was there and he was talking about world hunger and world problems.

END OF SIDE ONE OF TAPE TWO.

START OF SIDE TWO OF TAPE TWO.

D.M.: We were talking about the secret... church movement. Bob, you were saying of course, you have been accused of distorting the things of altering what they are trying to do and a lot of men who are involved in this, I am sure, love the Lord. I am sure that they are really trying to do good. Of course they bought into a humanistic approach to spreading Christianity and putting more faith in a sales technique than in faith in the Holy Spirit. Would say that might be the case?

B.K.: Yes, absolutely, and so at least initially, I would say that they had the right motivation although later on at some point they have to overcome resistance to this and that’s - there is a point where these pastors become accountable. For instance -1 will get back to that statement from Lee Strobel - but for instance, many of these church consulting firms charge between $20,000. -$50,000 in order to bring this programme into the church. So there is first a very large incentive on the pastor’s part to implement the programme and for it to be a successful programme.

There always is opposition to it. Once the pastor goes to bring this programme in, there is always opposition. In this book called Transitioning - leading your church through change’ it has a whole chapter on dealing with opposition, how to marginalise people and to minimise them and to neutralise them.

D.M.: How do they go about doing that - lets imagine that somebody objects to the music in the church or somebody sees what is happening is concerned because they are taking people away from the traditional message of the church. How do you deal with these people?

B.K.: The first thing that you do is you only bring the inner circle - you get the inner circle of the church to buy into it and although they talk about the ‘power brokers’ within the church, the people who have a lot of influence, the people who have been a lot of times and the big tithers. Getting those people on board, it says with the power brokers, that same book, he says with the power brokers you have three choices and that is basically (1) convince them (2) fight them or (3) get rid of them and so they recommend that you get them on board - that is the recommendation. You try to get these power brokers on board.

Then you get the Deacon Board on side and you get the support of the Deacon Board and you convince them that this whole programme is going to work and then and only then do you start to implement it with respect to the congregation. Because if you open it up to the congregation right away then there will be opposition to it and you might actually fail in your effort to change the church. Where if you have already gotten the Deacon Board on board, the Deacon Board will not vote the pastor out because they have already bought into this idea and basically you will cause splits in the church and the traditionally-minded, bible-based people will be the ones that leave the church. And then the church will be able to move on to this whole idea of change.

D.M.: But what happens if the people don’t want to leave and it is their church, they have been there and invested a lot of their life and their money in the church and they would be speaking out against what is going on.

B.K.: They will be marginalised. The pastors will talk them down; they will even preach about it, they will even preach about the people who are dissenters. We have heard of pastors preaching bout blessed subtractions - prayed people out of the church. We have heard a pastor do that, that he actively prayed that certain people would leave and so at some point, yes, the pastor starts out with this noble cause of wanting to get a lot of people and do a lot of great things for God. But at some point - there is a point where they meet this opposition and then it raises its ugly head and they start to do things, which are unthinkable.

D.M.: They really do, actively then, try to get people to leave the church.

R.K.: If the people are resistant to the change. One thing is that you try - again, it is a very manipulative technique and they have studied it dramatically. They have studied and proven that if your 7 best friends are in church you won't leave the church - it doesn’t matter how bad the doctrine gets, so their whole goal is to nurture these human relationships. Get people involved in social ministries - they have got surfing ministries and bicycling and bowling and bridge, crochet and everything to get you with a circle of friends because you won’t leave because you would break up those relationships. So human relationship takes precedent over relationship with God, which is a humanistic idea anyway.

D.M.: Then of course the minister will preach against those who are speaking out against what is happening?

B.K.: Absolutely. There is one sin in these secret-sensitive churches and that is the sin of disunity. The person who is trying to hold to the Biblical absolute that is being accused of disunity. So eventually, what happens is that the person who, like you said, this resistor, what happens to this resistor who doesn’t want to leave the church, ends up doing one of two things. Ends up leaving the church or he ends up knuckling-under, caving-in or compromising and being miserable there and falling into the whole trap of the programme.

Now back to that quote by Strobel, the manipulation in the message, for instance he was talking about world hunger and he was saying that misguided nationalism is the cause of world hunger. We have enough food world-wide and we could solve the world-wide hunger problem, but it is misguided nationalism that causes this. This is a subliminal type of message that people walk away with saying ‘Oh yeah, you know the U.S. really ought to give up its sovereignty because sovereign nations are causing these problems in the world. The reality is that is not the truth. The truth is that it is corrupt governments that have caused poverty. I mean we have sent huge planeloads and trucks loads of aid to various impoverished nations and it has ended up in the hands of the leaders who have either sold it for their own gain or whatever. But it has not been trickling down to the people that need it the most. It is corrupt governments that have added to the worldwide hunger problems and it doesn't have anything to do with misguided nationalism or the fact that a nation such as the U.S. wants to hang on to its sovereignty.

D.M.: I remember when we had the famine in Somalia a few years ago and it wasn’t as though there was plenty of food there, it was just that they had no means of getting it distributed because of the political unrest and of course Africa is one of the most lush productive continents in the entire world. But of course it is because we have financed corrupt dictators there and kept them in power that the people are impoverished and constantly involved in wars and many of them living in poverty.

So, people have to understand that - we will give you one explanation, but it is very, very seldom the right explanation for what is going on.

(Section of Radio Talk-back deleted.)

B.K.: Yes, there is a couple of points that I wanted to make about that - one is that as far as Scriptures, we have spoken of several people - talking about working from within and trying to stay within and turn this around and the people that we have met, none of them have been able to do that. They have all actually caved in and gone along with the programme. And that’s the idea that they are staying there for the relationships and that ends up taking precedence. So there is no Scripture with respect to working within. It is always ‘come out from among them and be ye separate’ - separate yourself from among them, the people that are teaching false doctrine don’t sit underneath them because it is dangerous to stay in there. It is a danger that we must heed and a warning that we must heed.

Secondly, this idea that God is love. Actually there was an invitation at that Gorbachev State of the World Forum where it was titled “God is Love” and it had six of the major world religions all around a globe and it said “You are invited to join us in daily meditation”.

Well that god is love is a dialectic god. He is a god of consensus of which all the world religions can agree with. It’s the God of judgement and sin and damnation and hell that does not go along with the flow of everybody getting along and going along. So that is the dialectic god and that everybody agrees with. The god of the Muslims is a god of love, the god of the Hindu and Buddhism and everybody is a god of love. But not all those gods send people to a literal burning hell if they refuse to repent and follow Him.

D.M.: Amen! The idea that Christianity is the true and only religion is repulsive to all of the people who hate Jesus Christ.

B.K.: It is negative and divisive - yes.

[FEW WILL BATTLE SPIRITUALLY],

D.M.: Well, I think that we are involved in truly a great and amazing battle and I feel privileged to at least have a voice and I am so pleased that you are down there in Southern California getting the message out. Are you making any contacts from across the country? I know you have been to several seminars that Dean Gotcher has put on as the speaker there. Are you getting pretty good crowds out to hear this message?

B.K.: Actually, they are sadly small. 25 to 50 people at the most. Right, we had one in Dallas, Texas, we had one in Florida and we have one up coming in April in Ohio and sadly no, this is not a message that people are flocking to hear. It is not a secret-sensitive message I am afraid. However, every speaking opportunity there is a small number of people, I mean, and they are heart-broken and they have been in it, they have known there is a problem and they couldn’t put their finger on it - exactly where it came from. I mean, they are in tears, they have joy that they have finally realised what it is that they have been battling against for a long period of time and now know the answer to it and are coming out.

And so, it is not a popular message. There is a remnant being separated for righteousness and even though it has not a wide appeal, it is the few people that I do this for.

D.M.: Well, I am just hoping that the number will increase. After all, it is in the Lord’s hands and we are to do our best to get the message out to tell people the truth and that’s really the beauty of talk radio and of course what we do and of course this will be circulated across the country and we will make sure that some of these tapes get out to our followers and we do have a fair number of them. People can of course go to our web site and get the archive programmes off the web site and get the tapes.

I believe that rather than going to all the effort to travel all around the country, from my point of view, I am coming down to Southern California on Wednesday to speak on Thursday but I firmly believe that being behind the microphone - this is why I appreciate so much your coming on to be on our programme Bob, because we are reaching many hundreds, many thousands of people out there. They are not calling in tonight but they are out there, they are listening and I know that many of them are in total agreement with what you are saying.

Many people have seen these things happen in their church and did not understand what was happening. It was sort of like Christian, I knew it was wrong - this new music that was coming out but I couldn't put my finger on it until I talked to Jack Wheaton (sic) red his books - it was so obvious what was happening. Now I have talked to other people -professional musicians who simply reinforced that understanding - there is an organised effort to use music to destroy Christendom.

B.K.: Yes, absolutely.

D.M.: We have a couple of minutes left. What are your parting thoughts for our listeners tonight? And you have a telephone number or web site or anything you would like to get out?

B.K.: Gives out his home phone number. 6263396453 - E-mail - bobandpam@iol7.com I would encourage if there is any material, quotations and references that I can get out to people, I have video or audio tapes that I can get out to people again to get the message out.

From the web at: http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Mini/minidespatchJune302001.htm

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"Ah consensus _ the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies in search of something in which no one believes, but to which no one objects; the process of avoiding the very issues that have to be solved, merely because you cannot get agreement on the way ahead. What great cause would have been fought and won under the banner 'I stand for consensus'?"

_ Margaret Thatcher

THE CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE FACILITATES THE COMMUNITY CHURCH TAKEOVER OF THE CHURCHES OF CHRIST

Gary McDade

"The Community Church begins as a parasite feeding off a thriving organism."

"Older, established churches of Christ are funding the vehicle of their demise when they support the Community Church."

WHAT IS THE CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE?

The Christian Chronicle is published by Oklahoma Christian University. It is Edited by Bailey B. McBride. Glover Shipp is the Senior Editor. It is published monthly and has a worldwide readership.

WHAT IS THE COMMUNITY CHURCH?

Currently the best known expression of the Community Church is the model of Bill Hybels out of Barrington, Illinois, near Chicago called The Willow Creek Community Church. However, a Baptist preacher named Rick Warren while denying cloning Willow Creek has built The Saddleback Community Church in Orange County, California, which closely parallels Willow Creek, and has written a more understandable guide for duplicating the Community Church entitled The Purpose Driven Church.

These are denominational churches loosely affiliated with the group from which they came which merely have shrouded themselves with the name "Community Church." The cardinal rule among them is to appear non-traditional. They are characterized by a casual dress code, "contemporary" music, non-distinctive public speeches which endeavor to focus the attention of the assembly on a celebration-type atmosphere, inter-denominational acceptance, small group organization, personal testimonies, praise teams, and in their inception stages a brazen acceptance of financial support from churches they intend to take over.

HOW DOES THE CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE FACILITATE THE COMMUNITY CHURCH?

The Christian Chronicle, March 2000, speaks in the most glowing and favorable terms of the Community Church with only the exception of a very few scant references to the contrary. Of the six articles on the subject only one writer ventured to ask a few questions, and even he dared not speak one word of criticism, just alarm while advising a "wait and see" posture. Also, of the writers selected one has helped plant a Community Church in Searcy, Arkansas, another presented the view that "this change is our historical commitment to nondenominational Christianity," another said he believes their purposes to be "God-given," and yet another currently is the minister for a Community Church in Amarillo, Texas. The three pages devoted to the Community Church are clearly weighted in favor of it. Additionally, the editor of the feature, Lindy S. Adams, provided the Web site addresses for Willow Creek and Saddleback, facilitating their use. Two of the writers are professors at Harding University, one is adjunct instructor for Harding Graduate School of Religion in Memphis, one is president of Rochester College, two are self-styled church growth experts, and, as mentioned earlier, one is a minister for a Community Church. The selection of people with connections to schools supported by churches of Christ who will not oppose the Community Church to write the articles facilitates the movement by lending the impression of acceptability to the articles.

TELLTALE MISCONCEPTIONS OF THE EDITOR

The editor of the feature is laboring under at least two misconceptions regarding the church of Christ. One, in the

introduction Adams wrote,.. the church they worked diligently to create____" Men did not create the church of Christ;

it is of divine origin (Eph. 3:9-11, 4:1-5, 5:23-25). Without doubt this misconception is why such liberties are being taken with regard to the church. The view seems to be if men created the church of Christ and it is not now what men want it to be, then just simply change it to fit the wishes of men today. Two, denominational church growth models can be adapted and altered to cause the churches of Christ to grow. The church of Christ is not a denomination (I Cor. 1:10, Eph. 4:4). The one responsible for its growth is God himself (I Cor. 3:6-9). The method of its expansion is the preaching and teaching of the word of God (Mk. 16:15, Acts 6:7). The church growth expert who teaches at Harding and has helped start Covenant Fellowship Community Church wants the readers to believe these Community Churches are "still within the ‘Church of Christ mainstream.’" How can anyone expect that to be so when they do not even so much as retain the name Church of Christ? Their attempt at worship and congregational organization is a departure from the truth, yet they demand their followers to insist that they are center of the strait and narrow road. A Christian may have no fellowship with the unfruitful (I Cor. 1:10, Eph. 5:11). Their means and methodologies have nothing to offer the Lord's people. (I Thess. 5:5). Light and darkness have no communion (II Cor. 6:14). Brethren need to wake out of sleep, get back to teaching and preaching the word of God, and Christ will give all the light needed to advance his cause (Eph. 5:14).

HOW TO DEFEAT THE TAKEOVER

In closing, four suggestions are offered on how to defeat the takeover. One, by exposing the error of the Community Church and those favorable to it. It is right to be "set for the defense of the gospel" (Phil. 1:17). Paul left Titus in Crete to set things in order, hold fast the faithful word, exhort and convince the gainsayers, stop the mouths of the gainsayers, and rebuke them sharply (Titus 1:5-13). Jude 3 still calls for an earnest contending for the faith. Two, by refusing to fund the Community Church movement by withdrawing personal and financial support from those congregations and schools promoting the Community Church. Philippians 1:5 and 4:15 proves that those whom we support financially we are fellowshipping. If one is contributing into a church treasury, he is in fellowship with that which is supported out of that treasury. When the leadership of a local congregation is dedicated to the planting of Community Churches all of the members of that congregation are responsible for the planting of the Community Churches. By withdrawing personal and financial support from that congregation the take over will be thwarted. The Community Church begins as a parasite feeding off a thriving organism. A paradoxical phenomenon is occurring with the Community Church. Older, established churches of Christ are funding the vehicle of their demise when they support the Community Church. It is very sad to note that if this continues, the children and grandchildren of members of the churches of Christ will not know the truth about the church of the Bible because the Community Church advocates are changing everything about it under the pretense of church growth.

Three, by evangelizing the lost (Matt. 28:19, 20). No matter what the problems and challenges faced by the churches of Christ the gospel of Christ must continue to be preached to a lost and dying world. Many problems and challenges besieged the early church, yet the gospel was advanced to the point that Paul could write in Colossians 1:23 that every creature under heaven had the opportunity to hear it. The method authorized by God to reach lost souls is preaching (I Cor. 1:18-21). Imagine if The Christian Chronicle were dedicated to such a noble purpose instead of promoting the latest denominational craze. The millions who could be taught the Bible through that paper who are instead being coaxed into error make these developments all the more a shame. Four, by edifying those who are Christians (Eph. 4:15,16). Paul said that by edifying "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" (Eph. 4:14). Through edification the Christian dons the whole armour of God in which he stands against the methods of the devil (Eph. 6:11).

THE COMMUNITY CHURCH A Brief Overview

Gary McDade

The Lord Jesus Christ established his church on the first Pentecost after the resurrection 33 A.D. in Jerusalem, Israel. The church of Christ was purchased with the precious blood of the Son of God (Acts 20:28). As his loving bride, the church wears his sacred name, the church of Christ (Eph. 5:21-33; Rom. 16:16). Jesus Christ is the head of this one bride, which is his body (Eph. 5:23; 1:21-23). And, "there is one body" (Eph. 4:4). In recent times, men have arisen who are ashamed of the name of Christ’s bride and body, "the church of Christ." One example emerges from The Christian Chronicle where a deacon from the former Southlake Church of Christ in Dallas, Texas stated that changing the name to the Southlake Boulevard Church and following a Baptist preacher by the name of Rick Warren through his book, The Purpose-Driven Church, was "removing a barrier to the community" (April, Vol. 57, No. 4). Dozens of examples like this can be cited from the March and April editions of The Christian Chronicle. The names being substituted in the place of the scriptural name "church of Christ" constitute a departure from heaven’s way. Salvation is only in the name of Christ, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Those who have become ashamed of Christ and his sacred name will be condemned, for he said, "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels" (Mk. 8:38).

In the place of heeding the great commission (Matt. 28:18-20) by sowing the good seed of the kingdom, which is the word of God (Lk. 8:11), and being content and honored to be workers together with God (II Cor. 6:1) allowing him to give the increase (I Cor. 3:6), these people are following a so-called "paradigm" or model for church growth from Barrington, Illinois called "Willow Creek Community Church." They speak of "practical" Christian doctrine which is "pragmatic," meaning whatever works to bring in the numbers of people and dollars (The Bridge, Harding Graduate School of Religion, Volume 41, Number 4, July 2000, p. 1). Their goal clearly is to please "people today" or "contemporary Christians" (ibid.). And, from where did Bill Hybels, founder of WCCC, get this model now being so widely imitated among denominational people like Rick Warren and many Christians who formerly considered themselves to be members of the church of Christ? Hybels wrote in Rediscovering Church, "But what could seem like a patterned formula is actually a twenty-year response to the fluid, daily, unpredictable leading of God. The unimpressive truth is that we made the whole thing up as we went along, trusting the Holy Spirit for each next step, rarely seeing which direction the path ahead would take. It was only by following the voice of God~by listening for his particular call to us--that we could move forward with confidence" (p. 53). The Holy Spirit leads, guides, and directs only through his word, the Bible, today (Eph. 6:17; II Tim. 3:16-17). Therefore, taking away the Holy Spirit directly leading Hybels all that is left is, "The unimpressive truth is that we made the whole thing up as we went along...."

A summary of this new model will be given in three points: 1) The strategy for changing the name to the Community Church, 2) the organizational structure of the Community Church, and 3) the evangelistic thrust of the Community Church. Point one, the name Community Church is preferred because traditional names are viewed as carrying unwanted baggage. Contemporary people want to be in charge of the church without old restrictions, so a break with the past is made in accepting a new name. Contemporary people do not want to learn Christian doctrine; they just want to be free to express themselves in whatever way they "feel" the Holy Spirit directly is leading them. Point two, the Community Church is organized around a twofold structure, large group celebrations and small affinity groups or cell groups. The way the professor of Christian doctrine at Harding University Graduate School of Religion in Memphis has organized the Community Church of which he is a shepherd is into small groups of eight to sixteen adults. Large group gatherings are celebrations; small group gatherings are "entry points." Informal dress, contemporary Christian music, testimonials, praise team presentations (music and drama), and hand clapping make up the celebration of the large group meetings. Sharing, praying, evangelizing, and Bible study make up the small group meetings. Point three, the evangelistic thrust of the Community Church centers around targeting the type of people the church wants to evangelize. Most pick younger (late thirties or early forties) people who are well educated and have

good incomes. The one or ones in charge find out what that group wants and then sets out to unreservedly give it to them. Somehow granting these "contemporary people" what they want is supposed to generate within them holiness and communion with God.

The source from which the Community Church model or paradigm is making its way into the churches of Christ is out in the open. Sadly, it is the Christian schools. The generation who established these schools for the education of Christian young people in an environment conducive to Christian growth and development based on the inspired word of God are now deceased. Younger men impressed with the soaring expense of operating these enterprises know it will take large sums of money for them to continue to compete for the brightest and best students. Churches now primarily made up of older people have given their all to keep them viable, but their children have married and moved into other cities and communities; their pre-inflation blue-collar-worker dollars no longer are enough. At this point in time, not all of the Christian schools have succumbed to the pressure. They remain worthy of personal and financial support. But, those that are participating in the Community Church movement or are silent about it, thus, facilitating it, are not worthy of another dollar from the pockets of Christian parents who formerly have entrusted their precious children to them for instruction in righteousness (Eph. 5:11).

The schools that are known to be promoting the Community Church from the published sources earlier mentioned are these: Abilene Christian University, Harding University (the academy, undergraduate, and graduate schools are and have supported the Community Church. The dean of the graduate school, Evertt Huffard, is credited with starting the Downtown Church in Memphis way back in 1995. See: Harding Alumni Magazine, August 1995), Oklahoma Christian University, Lipscomb University, Pepperdine University, Rochester College, and Southern Christian University (a retired faculty member, Edward R. Barels, has gone on record in favor of the Community Church, so whether or not SCU itself favors the movement needs to be clarified by SCU officials. SCU’s name appears in The Christian Chronicle articles). (See editor's note below.)

A leading characteristic of brethren who are in favor of the Community Church is a down play of Bible doctrine and an arrogant chiding of following the Bible as a "blueprint." Isaiah wrote, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isa. 8:20). Jesus said, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt. 7:20). Paul wrote, "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" (Titus 1:13).

Editor's Note: Alan E. Highers has published the following statement in the January 2001 issue of The Spiritual Sword: "We are happy to note that SCU officials have come forward in a forthright manner in disassociating themselves from the community church movement. The chairman of the Board of Regents states: 'I assure you that we hold not one shred of support for the movement that you have described or any of its related false doctrines.' We appreciate this statement and we are pleased to set the record straight."

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"Citizens often arrive at what has been slated as a public hearing or a public forum to find that things don't seem quite right; that there is suddenly this new way of conducting meetings that somehow doesn't seem right. Instead of chairs set up for the audience with microphones where they can give input; there are now tables with chairs where people sit in circles and are facilitated by a pre-chosen facilitator."

http://www.icehouse.net/lmstuter/act.htm

THE PEOPLE'S CHURCH

A WAYWARD VESSEL By: Paul Proctor

I walked through the doors of The First Baptist Church in the spring of 1995 after having been somewhat of a prodigal son for roughly 10 years. I had recently rededicated my life to Christ and wanted to once again be a part of a loving church family. As I entered and sat down to the joyful noise of a magnificent choir and orchestra praising God in song, my heart and soul were filled with wonder, excitement and great expectation. I was truly being prepared for worship.

When the preacher finished his sermon, I was spiritually refreshed and energized for the week ahead. His message had been clear, powerful, convicting, biblical and full of the Holy Spirit. Over time I grew to love this brother in Christ because of his faithfulness and passion for the gospel. After visiting the church for some months, I knew I had found a church home.

A couple of years later, the pastor invited me to lunch at a nearby country club he frequented where he mentioned in passing his desire to eventually do away with the First Baptist Church name and simply call it "The People's Church", claiming "that's what everyone called it anyway". Still taken by the man's persona, I smiled and nodded in approval as he told me of wanting to take the church in "a new direction", away from the Southern Baptist stigma that he felt had somehow hindered us in the past and move on greater things. Unfortunately, he didn't elaborate on what that "new direction" was and I mistakenly assumed that he meant toward a non-denominational identity.

In the coming weeks and months a new message began emanating from his pulpit not unlike what had been coming from, of all places, the presidential podium of Bill Clinton during the height of his scandals. A re-occurring theme of "tolerance, diversity and unity" seemed to permeate almost every sermon. It became increasingly clear to me that the pastor's "new direction" was worldly and that he was now being guided by someone or something other than God. Friction grew between the two of us over the course of time as his sermons turned away from the gospel that leads to repentance and faith in Christ to the social psychology of get-alongism. Sure, the Bible calls us to live in peace with one another, to keep and maintain healthy relationships with our brothers and sisters in Christ, but NOT at the expense of God. The pastor I once held in such high regard began reciting "group-think" platitudes like: "YOU CAN'T BE RIGHT WITH GOD AND AT ODDS WITH EVERYONE ELSE", meaning it was now time for us all to compromise our conscience and convictions for the collective. This is the "Consensus Process" at work, a 200 year-old socialist brainwashing technique known by social psychologists the world over as the "Hegelian Dialectic", developed by Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel in the late 1700's that involves the practice of compromise to achieve social harmony between opposing groups and/or belief systems. The "Hegelian Dialectic" is especially damaging to those of the faith who are compelled by the process to accept the unacceptable in order to gain the approval of the group. It is the herd mentality of humanist thinking and an abomination before God.

You see the Bible is FULL of godly men who stood alone and died fighting the heresy of the herd mentality, including Jesus Himself. Being "at odds with everyone else" is EXACTLY what got Him nailed to a cross! He said: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) This certainly doesn't bode well for pastors whose primary agenda is church growth and big numbers.

It was not a tolerant Jesus who cleared the temple in Jerusalem of moneychangers with a whip or a tolerant John the Baptist who publicly railed against King Herod for marrying his brother’s wife or a tolerant Paul that stood up against Peter for alienating uncircumcised believers or tolerance that got most of the disciples beheaded or crucified in the early days of the church. Yet, here we are entering a new millennium, crossing that illustrious "Bridge To The 21st Century", as a re-invented church of tolerance, diversity and unity. As the doors are all thrown open to anyone and anything, I ask you, is the church affecting the culture or is the culture infecting

the church? Who is proselytizing whom here? Look around and tell me what you see.

It wasn't long before a vulgar campaign for cash began at The People's Church as if someone was running for political office, complete with banquets, dinners, awards, lots of flattering speech, testimonials, presentations, private meetings and special attention given to the church's "big givers", (their term, not mine) all to benefit a massive new building program that would put us in a high-tech "worship center" and twelve million dollars in debt.

Today when I walk into that entertainment complex on Sunday morning where a sanctuary used to be, I see a lot of cushioned movie theater seats where pews used to be; a big multi-media projection screen where a wooden cross used to be; a half dozen choreographed entertainers performing to applause where a choir used to be; a jazz/rock band playing solos where an orchestra used to be; a young female singer leading simplistic chants before a confused audience, where a music minister used to lead great hymns of worship and praise to God and where a charming "facilitator" in a golf shirt preaches that we should all GO ALONG TO GET ALONG, where a once humble man of God in a suit and tie used to courageously proclaim the Word of God.

Just the other day I was listening to a pre-recorded radio program on the internet called "Steel On Steel" hosted by John Loeffler. He was interviewing a former teacher and expert on European history and philosophy by the name of Dean Gotcher about the "Hegelian Dialectic" or "Consensus Process" and how it is has successfully been integrated into the government, the media, the military, law enforcement, public education, colleges, seminaries and even the church to centralize everything and unify us all into the socialist mindset of global governance. The global-socialist goal is and always has been a one-world government and a one-world religion. They have used the "Hegelian Dialectic" for centuries to control large populations around the world and steer them toward a "New World Order". Near the end of the hour-long program, he casually mentioned a couple of Christian organizations that were known for seducing churches into this "Consensus Process" with "progressive" church-growth programs where compromising brings in big numbers. The temptation of such worldly fruit is obviously hard to resist, even among the most faithful of pastors. Nonetheless, doing unholy things in the name of Christ does not make them holy.

When Dean Gotcher mentioned one of those organizations as being "The Willow Creek Association", bells began ringing, lights began flashing and all of a sudden five years of confusion, contention and controversy between my pastor and me were INSTANTLY brought into complete clarity. OF COURSE! The People’s Church belonged to the Willow Creek Association! Once my eyes were opened to their carnal ways through additional research, combined with all that I had learned over the years about global-socialism, I became convinced that we, (the church) had been brought into the "Consensus Process" by way of a socialistic humanist organization posing as a Christian ministry, complete with "change-agents" and "facilitators" (wolves in sheep's clothing) that I myself had encountered personally from Sunday School to Sunday worship. Apparently, THIS was the pastor's "new direction" for The First Baptist Church. It came as no surprise to later discover that Willow Creek's founder, Bill Hybels is a dear friend and personal minister to the nation’s most renown socialist and "facilitator", Bill Clinton. NOW I KNOW why my pastor began sounding so 'Clintonesque" in his Sunday morning sermons some three or four years ago.

As I went on to research The Willow Creek Association, I discovered that thousands upon thousands of established churches around the country were being transformed into sensory driven "seeker churches" EXACTLY like ours under the guidance and direction of this organization, all with the same tolerance, diversity and unity theme, liberal worship format, scripturally shallow teaching, heavy on the comfort and light on the conscience, equipped with huge multi-media projection screens, large sound systems, exotic music, no choir, female ministers, feelings-motivated skits, dance interpretations and heavily burdened with millions of dollars of debt from building state-of-the-art entertainment venues they call "worship centers". I think the revolving disco ball sparkling overhead at our dedication service a couple of years ago was a REAL poignant moment for me personally.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever." (1st John 2:15-17)

I have long-since worn out my welcome with certain members of the church staff by repeatedly protesting our involvement in these ecumenical movements and carnal extravaganzas beginning with the "men's movement"; that emotionally driven, highly advertised, celebrity endorsed, spiritually misguided and now financially bankrupt organization known as "Promise Keepers". The "Consensus Process" or "Hegelian Dialectic" teaches "facilitators" to isolate, intimidate and even shame their critics into silence and cooperation with "hurt feelings" as their license and authority. This too is carnal. Those seeking group acceptance and approval are powerless against it. Frankly, I'd much rather have God's acceptance and approval than the herd's. You see The Willow Creek Association always emphasizes "felt needs", unity, harmony, peace and human relationships over everything else...Just like the United Nations. But, that's not the Gospel.

"Consensus" is all about compromising toward "group-think" not God think. It is conformity to the collective through peer-pressure. This is the very heart of the heresy. Centralization toward globalism is the reason for consensus and explains why so many big corporations have merged into government-controlled monopolies; why the two major political parties have become almost indistinguishable; why national borders have become virtually meaningless; why national sovereignty is being surrendered to the United Nations; why the Constitution is being ignored by our own president; why "The Millennium World Peace Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders" is meeting in August to christen a One World Religion and world leaders from 160 nations are meeting in September at the UN. for "The Millennium Summit" to initiate World Government, complete with its own criminal court, tax system and standing army. Unfortunately, the nasty little secret about the consensus process is that any and all issues discussed usually have a pre-determined outcome provided by the attending "facilitator". Imagine that! Conscience and compromise can NEVER co-exist. They are ALWAYS incompatible.

One MUST surrender to the other for there to be unity. Consensus therefore, will ALWAYS lead it's followers away from biblical absolutes and Authority (i.e., "Thus sayeth the Lord....") to obtain the acceptance and approval of the group.

We all want to be loved don't we? Some of us are desperate to be loved. It is undoubtedly why so many have given their lives to the entertainment and film industry and made Hollywood their "Emerald City". They have been taught throughout the 20th century that if they could only be a "big star" they would be loved and accepted by everyone. The desire to BE LOVED is natural but loving those that don’t agree with us is unnatural and difficult. Jesus said: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself". Yet, millions of children for over half a century listened and learned as The Wizard Of Oz told the Tin Man: "...a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." This is consensus over conviction, covetousness over conscience and flesh over spirit, the heresy of Hollywood and the wages of Willow Creek...following the crowd and the culture in order to be loved and accepted.

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Proverbs 14:12)

The bottom line is this; Willow Creek is a showboat, sold as a Christian cruise that in time will be remembered as another Titanic. The First Baptist Church is truly becoming "The People's Church", because that is exactly who they have chosen to follow and obey...PEOPLE. Needless to say, after 5 long and frustrating years aboard this wayward vessel, I'll be going in search of a humble fishing boat where the waters are calm, the nets are full, the crew is faithful, and Christ is the captain, because as Paul Harvey says: "Now I know the REST of the story".

"They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand." (Isaiah 44:18)

Paul Proctor is a free lance writer and a regular contributor to Ether Zone. Paul can be reached at pdp@usa.com Published in the August 18,2000 issue of Ether Zone Online Copyright © 2000 Ether Zone Online, (http://etherzone.com).

Reposting permitted with this message intact.

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WILLOW CREEK, HEGELIAN DIALECTIC AND THE NEW WORLD ORDER

By: Paul Proctor

No sooner do I finish my piece about Willow Creek Association's seduction of 14,000+ churches around the world, including my own, via the Hegelian Dialectic, than Ted Koppel shows us the actual process at work on ABC News Nightline between evangelical leaders and Bill Clinton at the Willow Creek Church in South Barrington, Illinois.

With ministers from around the country attending Willow Creek's Leadership Conference, Bill Hybels, acting as "facilitator", brings everyone into the "Consensus Process" to hear Bill Clinton's confession-less appeal for forgiveness to try and gain the approval and acceptance of the evangelical community just in time for the Democratic Convention.

For the benefit of those who have not yet heard of the Hegelian Dialectic, let me briefly run through it as taught by Authority Research Center president, Dean Gotcher. The Hegelian Dialectic or "Consensus Process" is a 200 year-old, three-step process of "thesis, antithesis and synthesis", developed in the late 1700's by a german named Georg William Friedreich Hegel that results in what we now know as "group-think". It is a system Dean calls "Praxis" that Socialists have used for centuries to seduce, seize and control mass populations without warfare. It is also in full operation here in the United States under such names as: "Outcome Based Education", "Goals 2000", "Sustainable Development", "School To Work", "DARE" and many more. It's all about embracing "tolerance, diversity and unity" for The New World Order. To put it in layman's terms, it's brainwashing.

Here's how it works: A group gathers, and has agreed beforehand that each in attendance will ultimately surrender his or her own personal position on any given issue to the will or "consensus" of the group after ‘processing to consensus* through dialog. In a Christian setting, the presupposition is that the group's will determines "the will of God". The group's "facilitator", whoever that may be, mediates between sides, be they "good and evil", "for and against", "republican and democrat", "liberal and conservative", etc., whatever the case may be, often instigating heated confrontations between the opposing sides for the purpose of suggesting compromise as the perfect solution to restore and maintain the peace and the relationships of everyone involved. The resulting outcome or ‘consensus* is then reintroduced if necessary, at the next meeting for more "Praxis", more dialog and more compromise until another "consensus" is reached. Then the "process" repeats all over again...and again...and again until the facilitator's desired outcome is achieved. Over time, the convictions and concerns anyone may have had originally are processed away beyond recognition or relevance leaving one and all to accept the facilitators pre-determined outcome as the consensus of the group. It's no longer a question of what is right or wrong, good or bad, lawful or unlawful, but rather HOW WE ALL FEEL ABOUT IT...no absolutes, no conscience, no convictions, no laws, no Constitution, no Bible and NO GODIIISonly consensus....and a contrived consensus at that. Pretty slick huh? That's the Hegelian Dialectic.

That's exactly what "facilitator" Bill Hybels accomplished the other day between church leaders attending the Willow Creek Conference and his friend Bill Clinton on ABC^ Nightline. Protesting evangelicals (thesis), demanded socialist Bill Clinton (antitheses), answer for his lies and sexual indiscretions at the meeting. Hybels, as the "facilitator" voices their protests and then injects that Clinton HAD confessed to them by saying he publicly admitted: "I have sinned". Yeah, well...we ALL have sinned Bill. The Bible says it in Romans 3:23. That's not news. That's not a confession either. Nor is a politically expedient appearance in front of a church full of evangelical Christians before the Democratic Convention a demonstration of repentance. The fact is, Clinton has done everything he possibly could to save his political neck leaving a bloody trail of "Arkancides" strung out from Little Rock, to Washington D.C., to Waco, to Ft. Worth, to Ruby Ridge, to Kosovo, to Croatia, to China and beyond. While Hybels brings everyone together under socialism's religious umbrella of "tolerance, diversity and unity", Clinton's REAL crimes continue to be covered up, whitewashed, blackmailed, threatened, bribed and snafued away.

But that's OK. The good reverend just wants us to forgive his pal Clinton so we can all be one big happy family. Thesis + Antitheses = Synthesis...the Hegelian Dialectic. Sounds like the perfect formula for an Apostate Church to me. I wonder if Hybels has sent everyone personal invitations to "The Millennium World Peace Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders", meeting at the United Nations later this month as well? I hear they're all getting together to create a great big One World Religion for us here on planet Earth. Won't that be wonderful? A WORLD CHURCH!

(continued from page 28)

Paul Proctor is a free lance writer and a regular contributor to Ether Zone. Paul can be reached at pdp@usa.com Published in the August 24,2000 issue of Ether Zone Online Copyright ©2000 Ether Zone Online, (http://etherzone.com).

Reposting permitted with this message intact.

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.........THE TIME LINE.........

What Happened This Week at Madison

February 2001

Most Madison Church of Christ members were oblivious to this article in the February "Plumbline Newsletter" which quotes the "Madison Marcher"

More Holy-roller Influence at Madison*

The third worship service at Madison is to be held at the same time as the 10:30 a.m. worship. The "atmosphere will be more conducive to non-Christians." "Many un-churched people are intimidated by a more formal atmosphere...." The worship affair will be an effort, "...to make it easier for people with no church background to feel comfortable...." "More time will be given to singing and communion... The sermons will not be as long as what we are used to." "There is no question that God is working among our church family. He recognized our suppressed capacity to love." “Attendance for this first Sunday was 538 souls." Jim Hinkle said, "We will not be still, we will not be quiet."

In February of 2001 the Elders announced that a "third Contemporary" service that they had previously formed, was going to be melted into the 10:00 am or second service.

This announcement established a "contemporary service" at 10:00 AM and the 8:00 AM service remained unchanged.

While making this announcement, Elder Buck Dozier said the Fire Marshall’s office had said there were too many people in the third service for the size of the auditorium. Since Buck is the past Fire Chief, one has to wonder if this was just a staged excuse to proceed with what was already planned.

February 25,2001

Tom Haddon is instructing his "Homebuilders" class on how to transition the church members over to the ways of the Saddleback Community Church, and that of "Holy Entertainment" He talks about the well laid plans that only a few know about. See the transcript of February 25th class, (page 54)

March 2001

Praise teams, hand clapping, and raised hands during prayer have been introduced at the second service. Children’s Sunday school has been changed from bible based to more entertainment and singing. Young women teaching Sunday school to baptized young men.

April 13,2001

The Elders respond to a NewsChannel5 report about growing controversy at the Madison Church of Christ.

They send out a letter to 683 Churches of Christ in the Channel 5 viewing area.*

"The controversy seems to be over-reaction to change. The main things we have done in the 10:30 service are introduce more upbeat praise songs, give less time to the sermon, and give greater emphasis to the Lord's Supper.

This embraces a more contemporary format, of course, but we don't feel that it departs from scriptural worship." See ConcernedMembers letter to the Elders of 683 Churches of Christ, (page 71)

April 22,2001

In this meeting on April 22, 2001 the Deacons ask the Elders, what is going on?

On May 02,2001 the Elders reply in a letter.

Here are the Questions, and the Elders answers (page 34)

May 2001

ConcernedMembers receive a copy of a rough draft of a "Covenant of Membership" (page 66) that was supposedly written by Elder Buck Dozier. Mr. Dozier admitted "playing” around with one when contacted.

The concern about a "Covenant of Membership"* is that it's one of the hallmark signs of a "Community Church" like Saddleback.

They are generally written in such a way to assure that the membership can't take over the "community church" like they took over your church.

July ,2001

According to THIS ARTICLE* in the Tennessean, the Elders bring in a mediator(Larry Sullivan) to help with the split within the church. We understand that Buck Dozier met Mr. Sullivan while attending a "seminar".

Meetings are set up for the Elders. We understand they had to swear to secrecy.

Meetings are set up for the members to discuss their objections to the split contemporary and traditional services.

It's during one of these meetings that two people from the contemporary crowd announce that they have broken all ten commandments, with one of them calling himself a "tener". Since this was not "confession night", some of the participants from the traditional folks took this as a threat.

It's later shown by the ConcernedMembers that LARRY SULLIVAN is not an unbiased mediator (page 50). He

has direct ties to the Saddleback organization. He is trained in using the HEGELIAN DIELECTIC* techniques to compromise a groups consensus in what ever direction is predetermined.

Mid-August, 2001

By this time many members have left the Church.

The unpaid volunteer minister on this particular Sunday abruptly left before giving his sermon at the second service. He was only allowed the last 6 minutes of worship time by the song leader.

Sometime during this period, Buck Dozier appeared in Bill Ruhl's adult class to take over. Bill Ruhl's absence was unexplained to the class.

August 29,2001

Concerned members send out 2500 ballots and a LETTER (page 39) asking for church members to indicate on the ballot the type of church service format they wanted. All ballots were to be received by September 20,2001.

August 30,2001

Threatening phone calls are received by the contractor hired by ConcernMembers to do the mailing. Other notes not full of brotherly love are received by mail.

September 15,2001

Ballots from ConcernedMembers mailing are tabulated, and totals posted along with a FINAL REPORT (page 41) Comments written on the voting ballots here* (page 48)

September 23,2001

The members have been waiting on an announcement from the Elders regarding the future format of services at the Madison Church of Christ.

Today (09-23-01) that announcement was made.

EVERYTHING WILL REMAIN AS IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sunday 09-30-01 Larry Sullivan Was Guest Speaker! (The Unbiased Mediator*)

Sunday 10-07-01

Thursday 10-11-01

Deacons had a special meeting with an attendance of over 100 concerned members and deacons.

Petitions were given out to collect signatures, to dismiss the elders that have split the Madison Church of Christ.

Petitions are due to be turned in by Wednesday the 17th.

Sunday 10-14-01

Frank Scott delivered his first in a series of talking head animated and canned sermons.

Sometime during this period two Elders resigned. J.D. Elliott Bobby Me Elhiney

Wednesday 10-17-01

A member reported that Wednesday night when she inquired at the help desk as to where she should turn in her petitions, she was told by the lady; "over there with the trouble makers" "They are the mafia"

Sometime during this period two more Elders talked about resigning! No confirmation of that as of today.

Sunday 10-21-01

Sermon

Second in a three part series of Frank Scott being a talking head for a canned and animated sermon on Joy and entertainment. The words "Corporate Worship" and Joy and entertainment were used extensively. Interesting!

Deacons

The Deacons headed by Ben Jones nicely and in a very godly way asked the leaders to step down and let the Church elect new leadership.

(page 51)

Wednesday 10-24-01

Elder and Deacon meeting tonight!

We understand that the 7 or 8 elders that have caused a split at Madison Church of Christ have been formally asked to step down, or be disfellowshipped.

Thursday 10-25-01

Saddleback planters meeting tonight.

Talked about rebuking Ben Jones Sunday!

To rebuke - criticize or reprove sharply; reprimand.

To reprove - to criticize for a fault or misdeed; scold.

To rebuke/reprove Ben Jones, then Ben Jones must have done a misdeed.

To define that misdeed those who will rebuke him must find applicable scriptures.

What Ben did was to give each and every Madison Church of Christ member an opportunity to ask for forgiveness or repentance for causing division or for allowing division to occur.

Friday October 26th 2001

Flash Message coming in the next 72 hours from the ConcernedMembers!*

If you are not subscribed to the email list do it now to receive this message.

Simply click on the below link and send a blank email to subscribe.*

Sunday 10-28-01

T H E...M A D I S O N...C H U R C H...0 F...C H R I S T ...H A S....B E E N....H I J A C K E D !!

Today according to an announcement made by everyone's favorite elder Russ Kersten, the church has been hijacked by all the concerned members, deacons and I guess that includes the 5 elders that have been holding out against them.

More details to follow, hopefully.

Is Hijack a chargable offense in the Church?

October 29,2001

Ugly email received at pineycom.com, and the response*

October 29,2001

We received a copy of a letter sent to the Deacons* And we felt compelled to reply*

October 30,2001

ConcernedMembers announced future plans

November 1,2001

The Server for this web page has recorded 22,645 page views since it's creation 8 weeks ago.

November 02,2001

Transcript of Homebuilders Sunday school class. A recording of Tom Haddon on how to transition the congregation to Saddleback and Holy entertainment in Homebuilders Class, (page 54)

Available Now Under Interviews & Transcripts*

November 4,2001

J. R. Compton and wife members at Madison Church of Christ for 58 years, came before congregation to ask for forgiveness, and ask to have their names removed as members.

November 7,2001

Interview with Gary McDade of the Getwell Church of Christ in Memphis, TN. (page 61)

Discussion concerning the takeover of churches by the "Community Church" movement, and the embracement of this movement by many of the Christian colleges.

Posted now under Interviews & Transcripts*

November 8,2001

Rumor says there has been a new preacher hired. More details as they are known.

November 9,2001

Two different sources say Bruce White has been hired as a new minister.

indicates article is only available on the web. Visit: www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison

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The Deacons Beg For Answers, And The Elders Reply!

In a Deacons Meeting on April 22,2001 ,the below questions were asked.

On May 2, 2001 The Elders answered the below questions with the answer in parenthesis.

Deacon Names have been replaced with numbers, and other names have been replaced with [.........],    where    it    was

thought perhaps these folks might not want to see their names in print.

RESPONSES TO DEACONS' QUESTIONS OF APRIL 22, 2001 (In parenthesis)

1:

WITH THIS DIGRESSION THAT WOMEN TALK IN THE CHURCH, TEACH, WHAT'S THE NEXT THING?

(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER.)

WHAT DO THESE WOMEN ADD TO THE WORSHIP?

WHAT DO WOMEN ADD TO THE WORSHIP?

(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER.)

WHEN YOU ADVERTISE [..........]    AS    WORSHIP    LEADER,    ARE    YOU    NOT    IMPLYING PARTAKING OF THE

LORDS SUPPER, GIVING, PRAYER, AND THE READING OF THE LORDS WORD IS NOT WORSHIP?

(WORSHIP LEADER AND SONG LEADER IS NOT THE SAME THING. AS WORSHIP LEADER, [..........]    IS

RESPONSIBLE FOR PLANNING ALL AREAS OF THE WORSHIP SERVICE AND THEN PRESENTING THESE PLANS TO THE WORSHIP COMMITTEE. THIS INCLUDES THE LORDS SUPPER, GIVING, PRAYERS, AND THE READING OF THE LORDS WORD AS WELL AS THE SONG SERVICE.)

IF WOMEN AND MEN IN THE FRONT PEW HELPS THE WORSHIP WITH THEIR MIKES, WHY NOT GIVE A MIKE TO EVERYBODY IN THE AUDIENCE?

(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER.)

2:

CAN WE HEAR FROM YOU MORE OFTEN IN A WRITTEN FORM?

(WE FEEL THAT MORE WRITTEN COMMUNICATION FROM THE ELDERS TO THE MEMBERS IS A GREAT IDEA!! CONSIDERATION WILL BE GIVEN TO FINDING A BETTER WAY OF COMMUNICATING TO THE CONGREGATION ON REGULAR BASIS; PERHAPS BY AN ARTICLE IN THE MARCHER EACH MONTH.)

3:

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO REPENT, AND HOW LONG ARE YOU GONNA WALK DOWN THIS ROAD AND SEE EVERYTHING FALLING APART?

(REPENTANCE IS A PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY OF EACH INDIVIDUAL PERSON.)

A FEW WEEKS AGO YOU MADE A DECISION, YOUR DECISION THAT SOME PEOPLE WOULD LIKE AND SOME PEOPLE WOULD NOT LIKE, BUT YOU MADE A DECISION BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT YOU HAD VISION. DO WE HAVE THE - DO YOU ELDERS HAVE THE FAITH IN THE BODY OF CHRIST TO KNOW THAT IT IS GOD'S MERCY THAT EVERYONE OF US IS HERE TODAY?

(YES, THE ELDERSHIP DOES BELIEVE THAT IT IS THROUGH GOD'S MERCY THAT EVERYONE OF US IS HERE TODAY.)

5:

IF THE WORSHIP FORMAT OF THE SECOND SERVICE IS SCRIPTURALLY CORRECT, IS THERE SOMEWAY TO STANDARDIZE BOTH SERVICES SO THAT WE WILL NOT HAVE A DIVISION IN THE CHURCH?

(THE INTENT AND PURPOSE BEHIND HAVING TWO SERVICES CONTAINING DIFFERENT WORSHIP STYLES IS TO GIVE OUR MEMBERS A CHOICE. WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT HAVING TWO SERVICES IS DIVISIVE.)

I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE THREE ELDERS PLUS [...........]    AND    [.............]    ON    THE    WORSHIP

COMMITTEE. IS THERE ANY WAY THAT THE ENTIRE ELDERSHIP COULD OVERSEE THE WORSHIP FORMAT SO THAT WE MIGHT BE MORE CONSISTENT EACH WEEK?

(BECAUSE OF TIME RESTRICTIONS, MUCH OF THE WORK DONE BY THE ELDERSHIP IS THROUGH COMMITTEE ASSIGNMENTS. THE ELDERSHIP RECENTLY ADDED ONE ADDITIONAL MEMBER AND ONE ALTERNATE TO WORSHIP COMMITTEE. THERE ARE CURRENTLY FOUR ELDERS AND TWO ALTERNATES

PLUS [.........] AND [ ]ON THE COMMITTEE. THE ENTIRE ELDERSHIP DOES DISCUSS AND APPROVE THE

WORSHIP FORMAT FOR THE FOLLOWING WEEK AND GIVE DIRECTION TO THE WORSHIP COMMITTEE ON AN OUTGOING BASIS.)

IS THERE SOMEWAY TO HAVE A BALANCED SERVICE WITH SINGING, PREACHING, PRAYER, AND COMMUNION?

(THE WORSHIP COMMITTEE DOES ATTEMPT TO BALANCE THE VARIOUS WORSHIP COMPONENTS IN KEEPING WITH THE "THEME" OF THE SERVICE ALSO THE WORSHIP STYLE OF THE SERVICE WOULD DETERMINE THE TIME ALLOCATION OF THE VARIOUS WORSHIP COMPONENTS.)

WHEN A STATEMENT IS READ FROM THE ELDERS TO THE CONGREGATION, SHOULDN'T THAT LETTER BE READ AND APPROVED BY ALL THE ELDERS BEFORE IT IS READ?

(IN THE FUTURE, WE WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ALL OF THE ELDERS THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE AND APPROVE THE ACTUAL STATEMENT BEFORE IT IS READ OR GIVEN OUT TO THE CONGREGATION.)

ARE THERE PLANS TO INCORPORATE THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST NOW OR IN THE NEAR FUTURE?

(THERE ARE NO PLANS TO INCORPORATE THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST.)

6:

WHY HAVE SOME OF YOU ELDERS DIVIDED THE LORD'S CHURCH BY ALLOWING [...............................]    TO

CHANGE THE WORSHIP TO THE POINT THAT IT HAS CAUSED A LOT OF MEMBERS TO STATE THAT THEY CAN NO LONGER WORSHIP AS THEY SHOULD?

([......................]    DID    NOT    CHANGE    THE    WORSHIP.    THE ELDERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY AND ALL

CHANGES WHICH HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN PAST AND PRESENT WORSHIP SERVICES. [..........]IS SIMPLY

IMPLEMENTING OUR DECISIONS. THE ELDERSHIP FEELS THAT ALL MEMBERS CAN WORSHIP AT MADISON "AS THEY SHOULD".)

(BECAUSE OF VARIOUS REASONS, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO STATE THE EXACT NUMBER OF OUR MEMBERS WHICH NO LONGER ATTEND HERE. AMONG THESE REASONS IS A FAILURE OF THE MEMBERS TO NOTIFY THE CHURCH THAT THEY ARE MOVING THEIR MEMBERSHIPS.)

ARE YOU CONCERNED, AND HAVE YOU CONTACTED THEM TO BRING THEM BACK?

(THE ELDERSHIP IS EXTREMELY CONCERNED ABOUT ANY MEMBER WHO HAS LEFT. WE ARE VERY INTERESTED IN GETTING THEM BACK IN MADISON!! MANY CONTACTS ARE MADE WITH THOSE WE KNOW WHO LEAVE THE CONGREGATION.)

BRETHREN, DO YOU NOT FEAR GOD? ARE YOU NOT MINDFUL THAT ONE DAY YOU WILL STAND BEFORE GOD AND GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR DESTROYING THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH THAT HAS BEEN A LIGHT TO THE WORLD FOR SO LONG?

(THE ELDERSHIP DOES "FEAR GOD" AND ARE VERY AWARE OF THE TREMENDOUS RESPONSIBILITY WHICH WE ALL BARE. WE AGREE THAT EACH PERSON, INCLUDING ELDERS, WILL ONE DAY "STAND BEFORE GOD AND GIVE AN ACCOUNT".)

WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO MEET WITH JIM BILL MCINTEER AND WILLARD COLLINS TO DISCUSS THE DIVISION OF THIS CONGREGATION?

(CONSIDERATION IS CURRENTLY BEING GIVEN TO INVITING VARIOUS INDIVIDUALS IN TO "COUNSEL" WITH US CONCERNING VARIOUS ISSUES. PERHAPS AT SOME POINT, THIS MAY INCLUDE THESE TWO GODLEY MEN.)

7:

IS THIS POLICY (POLICY IN THE MADISON STORY) STILL IN FORCE - THAT THOSE ELDERS WHO FIND THEMSELVES IN THE MINORITY IN A DECISION WILL GRACIOUSLY SUBMIT TO THE POSITION OF THE MAJORITY IN ORDER TO PERSERVE THE UNITY OF SPIRIT IN THE BOND OF PEACE?

(THE ABOVE STATED IS CURRENTLY THE METHOD USED BY THE ELDERSHIP TO MAKE DECISIONS CONCERNING ISSUES WHICH COME UP. THIS METHOD IS ONLY USED AFTER MUCH PRAYER, STUDY, DISCUSSION, AND DELIBERATION ON THE PART OF THE ELDERSHIP.)

IF THE ABOVE POLICY IS STILL IN EFFECT AS IT WAS PUBLISHED (IN THE MADISON STORY), THEN WOULD YOU PLEASE, EACH (ELDER) GIVE US A PERSONAL INDIVIDUAL STATEMENT EXPRESSING YOUR SUPPORT FOR THAT FEBRUARY 4TH ANNOUNCEMENT (CONCERNING THE SECOND SERVICE BEING A MORE CONTEMPORARY WORSHIP)?

(EACH INDIVIDUAL ELDER DOES ENDORSE THE ABOVE STATEMENT.)

8:

WHAT'S THE SCRIPTURAL BASIS THAT YOU HAVE FOR LETTING WOMEN, NAMELY [...............]    AND    [..........]

TEACH AND ASSIST IN TEACHING OUR 7TH GRADE YOUNG MEN, MANY OF WHOM HAVE ALREADY BEEN BAPTIZED?

(WITHIN OUR STUDENT MINISTRY, THE HUSBAND / WIFE TEAM CONCEPT OF TEACHING IS USED IN SOME CLASSES. THERE IS ALWAYS A MALE PRESENT IN CLASS IN A LEADERSHIP ROLE. THE ELDERSHIP BELIEVES THAT THIS OCCURRED IN THE CASES ABOVE.)

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY DO THE ELDERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO IMPOSE THE WANTS AND WISHES AND DESIRES OF 20 OR 30 PERCENT OF OUR CONGREGATION - AND NEVER CONSULT THE OTHER PART OF THE CONGREGATION.

(THE DESIRE OF THE ELDERSHIP IS TO MAKE EACH WORSHIP SERVICE THE MOST WORSHIPFUL EXPERIENCE POSSIBLE FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL IN ORDER TO ENHANCE THEIR SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR LORD.)

WHY IS IT MORE SCRIPTURAL TO SATISFY A FEW AND DRIVE OFF MANY OF THE MAJORITY?

(THE DESIRE OF THE ELDERSHIP IS TO NOT DRIVE OFF ANYONE!!)

I THINK THAT WE NEED TO KNOW WHEN THE FOUR OF FIVE OR SIX ELDERS THAT DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS DIVISION ARE GONNA STAND UP AND BE COUNTED?

(THE ELDERSHIP DOES NOT CONDONE OR WANT ANY DIVISION IN THIS CONGREGATION.)

WHAT IS GAINED BY MOVING THE LORD'S SUPPER BY ANYBODY SPIRITUALLY WHEN IT UPSETS SO MANY OF OUR ELDERLY BRETHREN? WHAT ARE GAINING BY THIS?

(THE PURPOSE OF MOVING THE LORD'S SUPPER PLATES AND TRAYS TO THE SIDE WALLS WAS TO GIVE THE MEN WHO SERVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT WITH THEIR FAMILIES DURING MOST OF THE WORSHIP SERVICE. THEY WALK TO THE "SIDE LOCATIONS" AT THE START OF THE COMMUNION AND THEN BACK TO SIT WITH THEIR FAMILIES AT THE END OF THE COMMUNION.)

9:

WHY HAVE SOME OF THE ELDERS COME TO EMBRACE THE CHARISMATIC, PENTECOSTAL MOVEMENT THAT IS SWEEPING THROUGH MANY CHURCHES AND DENOMINATIONS ACROSS THE LAND WITHOUT CONSULTING THIS MEMBERSHIP?

(THE ELDERSHIP DOES NOT WANT TO EMBRACE ANY "MOVEMENT". IT IS THE INTENT OF THE ELDERSHIP TO FOCUS ON EACH PERSON CONNECTING SPIRITUALLY WITHIN THE DYNAMICS OF THE WORSHIP SERVICE.)

WHY HAVE THEY (THE ELDERS) OVERSEEN THE DEPARTURE OF OVER 1500 MEMBERS WITH MORE LEAVING EACH WEEK?

(EVEN THOUGH THE CHURCH'S ATTENDANCE RECORDS IN RECENT YEARS DOES NOT REFLECT A LOST OF MEMBERS OF THIS MAGNITUDE, THE ELDERSHIP IS EXTREMELY CONCERNED ABOUT ANY MEMBER WHO HAS LEFT.)

WHY DO THEY (THE ELDERS) NOT CHOOSE TO WALK THROUGH THE AUDITORIUM OUT THERE?

(THE ELDERS DO WALK THROUGH THE AUDITORIUM MANY TIMES. WE ARE CONTINUING TO MAKE OURSELVES AVAILABLE TO TALK TO MEMBERS OF THE CONGREGATION BEFORE AND AFTER SERVICES AS WELL AS BY PHONE AND E-MAIL.)

(WHY WERE) [.........] AND [............] PUSHED OUT OF THEIR REGULAR SEATS TO MAKE ROOM FOR THE

PRAISE TEAM?

(THE ELDERSHIP IS FOLLOWING UP WITH NATHAN AND SHIRLEY ON THIS ISSUE.)

IF THOSE DEACONS WHO ARE STILL GIVING WOULD INCREASE THEIR CONTRIBUTION, WHAT PERCENTAGE WOULD IT TAKE TO GET US BACK UP TO SPEED, BACK UP TO BUDGET?

(IT WOULD REQUIRE AN [..........]    PERCENT INCREASE.)

11:

IF MAJOR CHANGES ARE REQUIRED IN THE WORSHIP, DOES THIS MEAN THAT ALL OUR PAST WORSHIP HAS BEEN IN VAIN OR SINFUL? HAVE WE BEEN DOING THINGS WRONG ALL THESE PAST TIMES?

(THE ELDERSHIP DOES NOT FEEL THAT PAST WORSHIP AT THIS CHURCH "HAS BEEN VAIN OR SINFUL".)

HAVE THESE NEW WORSHIP CHANGES SPAWNED PEACE AND UNITY OR HAS IT CAUSED DIVISION?

(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER).

SINCE CLAPPING IS USED IN THE BIBLE MAINLY FOR DERISION, SHOULD WE USE THAT IN SERVICE?

(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER).

SHOULD WE LOOK TO DO ALL THINGS IN WORSHIP OR WHAT IS EXPEDIENT?

(THE ELDERSHIP FEELS THAT WE NEED TO BE SCRIPTURAL IN ALL MATTERS.)

IS IT RIGHT FOR AN ELDER TO TELL PEOPLE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT WE'RE ARE DOING, THEN YOU CAN LEAVE?

(NO, IT WOULD NOT BE PROPER FOR AN ELDER TO MAKE THE ABOVE STATEMENT.)

HAVE THE CHANGES IN WORSHIP BROUGHT A REPROACH OR A BLESSING ON THE CHURCH?

(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER).

HAVE THESE THINGS (TV NEWSCAST, JUBILEES, SUMMER SPECTACULARS, AND PLAYS) BROUGHT DISSENT FORM OTHER BROTHERS IN OTHER CONGREGATION?

(PERHAPS.)

HAS THE CHURCH BEGUN TO BE IN COMPETITION WITH ENTERTAINMENT?

(IT IS NOT OUR GOAL TO ENTERTAIN.)

HAS THE GOSPEL CHANGED, WHY SHOULD WE CHANGE THE WAY (WE) WORSHIPED IN THE PAST UNLESS WE BE CONVICTED BY SCRIPTURE THAT THE PAST HAS BEEN SINFUL IN THE WAY THAT WE HAVE WORSHIPED?

(THE BIBLICAL PRINCIPALS OF THE GOSPEL HAVE NOT CHANGED, HOWEVER, THE METHODS BY WHICH THEY ARE TAUGHT AND APPLIED TO OUR LIVES DOES CHANGE.)

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CONCERNED MEMBERS LETTER TO CONGREGATION

To: All Members of the Madison Church Of Christ, Past and Present From: Concerned Members with a Right to Know Date: 08/29/2001

Subject: You Have a Right To Know What's Happening!

Dear Member and Ex-Members of the Madison Church of Christ,

Do you recognize this scenario?

You're at church and suddenly realize that someone has changed your church! You ask people you know, "What's going on", and everyone says, "I don't know". You wonder, what do they mean! Have we been asleep? "What's going on here?" So, you approach some of your church elders with the same question. You get a similar answer. Now, your gut feeling is, "something's not right here".

Someone knows what's going on here, but it's not me!

Sunday School

You ask your children if their Sunday School has changed? Their reply, "Yeah!". You ask, "What has changed?" They say, "Oh we mostly sing; my teacher said, "Things needed to be made more entertaining!" You think, "Entertainment?", since when do families go to church to be entertained?

A Real Life Nightmare

By now you've figured out this is not a dream, but a real life nightmare. This nightmare is affecting an untold number of Madison Church of Christ members. A few very concerned members have contributed to the distribution of this poll. How many more members share these thoughts and concerns? The answer to that question is "We don't know". However, we all have a right to know! You have a right to know, if you wish!

National Worship Format Issues

There are churches in this nation that "export" division by the very nature of their view of worship. We will not name a particular church that causes us to make this statement. However, other churches and church leaders have considered the idea of emulating the spectacular growth of one or more churches that "entertain" their members rather than worship God because it fills the churches to the brim, as the old phrase goes. Leaders of some of these churches believe that members of churches who prefer what they would call "the old beliefs" need to be converted to entertainment, run off or run over to prevent them from restricting growth. There is a glaring reason why this may be happening across America, if not the world. It is a lot easier to get people to join an entertainment venue than to get them to commit to follow Christ and worship God in Holy reverence.

Here are some facts that we know:

1.    There are good and godly people leaving the Madison Church of Christ in disgust.

2.    The elders are not telling us what's going on.

3.    We have a right to know what's going on, as well as anyone else that cares about our church.

We know that we can worship God at many fine churches in the Nashville area. However, before we make a decision to move to another church, we have a right to know what's going on 'behind the scenes' at Madison. You have a right to know.

We need to find out who is in the minority. If people who are concerned about the changes taking place at Madison are in the minority, we may have to move our families to churches that strengthen our beliefs and follow a different worship format than we see emerging at Madison Church of Christ at this time. It's not our desire to be an element of divisiveness. It is our desire to get to the truth and show how widespread (or not) this movement is at Madison Church of Christ. Wouldn't you like to know? We have a right to know, you have a right to know, every church in Nashville has a right to know how this could happen to their church. Can 350 people overthrow 3,500? This poll will answer that question! Wouldn't you like to know the answer? Oddly enough, you have part of the answer and we can all know the whole answer by participating in this poll.

We understand that the elders are now in "secret meetings" to make a decision on how the Madison Church is going to be run. Here's the problem.

We don't think God's work needs to be carried out in secret.

QUOTE

*


No one consulted the church membership before the current changes were made in the Madison Church of Christ worship format. The results have been devastating. Now the Elders have announced they are meeting in secret again to decide something that's never been asked of its members. The Creators of change are obviously in charge and their work is best carried out in secret. Here is your chance to tell the Elders what they never asked you.

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"We have never heard of a member of the Church of Christ who has infiltrated an instrumental church and using the slow methods of change slowly pervert the purpose for which the church was founded.

In the name of common decency and minimal ethical behavior, a preacher or elder who finds that he does not support the mandate of the "founding fathers and mothers" of his church probably protected by law in the deed should not push "over the brink." No one will pass judgment upon one who insists they want to "worship" with instruments and leaves without sowing discord among brethren.

Again minimal morality would demand that rather than take over church property, those who disagree with the founding principles should exit and do the hard work needed to build their own institution."

www.pineycom.com

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The Final Report & Poll Results

Poll results follow this report

"There is not a split in the membership at Madison Church of Christ! This whole problem was brought on by a small group of people within the church that have aligned themselves with outside influences within the community church movement."

WHAT DO THE VOTE COUNTS MEAN?

There will be those that will cry “unfair, biased, unscientific”, you had "hip and entertaining”, and it should have read “contemporary”! But the small group of people trying to initiate change won't show you any polls of their own. They wouldn't dare, because now you’ve been exposed to the truth about their mission.

Here is what else the small group of people trying to initiate change won't tell you. The term “scientific poll” refers to a survey of 1,000 people, for instance, with the desire to project how 50,000,000 people would vote on an issue or issues. It is imperative that the 1,000 people be “scientifically selected” for the poll to be accurate.

When a survey is sent to the “entire universe of possible respondents”, in this case 2500 households, the term “scientific poll” does not apply. The results are probably reflective of the whole group even if only a small percentage of them vote. Also, the fewer questions asked the easier the results are to recognize.

There was only one question with two possible answers in the poll sent out recently. Here is what I think the results mean:

The members voted overwhelmingly to return this vessel (The Madison Church of Christ) to a historical scripture based worship service. Only .... 6.... votes wanted to employ a "hip and entertaining" or “contemporary” worship format.

What should we say about the members that refused to vote? Does it show that they did not want to have a "hip and entertaining” format of worship? They may be the silent majority who usually want a “status quo”. Sure, some of the ones that didn't vote thought a new format could be something like a “contemporary format”, maybe a little more clapping, a choir, an organ, etc.” But, these are just stopover points on the itinerary; the intended final destination of this congregation’s format is "Hip and Entertaining", make no mistake about it. The folks just haven't been told where they are really going!

Cruising To Saddleback

This destination of this vessel (The Madison Church of Christ) is a " New Madison Church" aligned with Saddleback Community Church of California. These are outside influences working within our church. You've already heard these names tossed around. You have already been “salted” with them:

"The Church at Madison"

"The MADISON CHURCH".

You probably thought they were just leaving off the "Church of Christ" part to shorten the name as many people do when referring to any institution whatever it may be. What you haven't heard is that there is a purpose in leaving off the “Church of Christ” because the "New" church will be a

community church". Not just a church in your community but a "Community Church" like ’’Saddleback Community Church - the fastest growing church in America and one of the ten largest (12,000 attendance). Rick Warren is pastor.” And yes, it's “hip and entertaining” at the community churches. “The Saddleback Church”, where they "program music for a purpose”. (Their words, not mine)

Besides Saddleback, there is Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois, they are both large churches that draw upwards of 20,000 people a week through their doors. They are kind of like Buick and Oldsmobile, they are different, but they are not! They both have church affiliates in every city, all over the world. They have taken over or established over 14,000 churches worldwide.

Read their list of facilities and events and you will see; coffee shops, bands, orchestras, game rooms, theaters, multi media theaters, plays, and all along with "music programmed for a purpose".

Read their qualifications for a "Praise Leader". You must be able to lead bands, and orchestras, direct large performances, and coordinate all aspects of the "Worship Experience"

But nowhere will you find knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ as a dominate qualification.

I ask you, “Is this not ‘Hip and Entertaining’?”

But, don't take my word for it. There are hundreds of these "community church" affiliates here in Tennessee. Sure they used to be Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, and even Churches of Christ. The three big ones in the Nashville area are:

"The Christ Church”, Nashville

"The Peoples Church" in Franklin,

and the premier homosexual church in Nashville,

The "Metropolitan Community Church". (MCC Nashville)

My secretary told me this week that she got a prerecorded phone announcement from the Cornerstone Church, here in Madison, inviting her to "Illustrated Services" on Sunday, where there will be FREE pop corn and peanuts and a chance to win $15,000

See, for yourself, if they aren't replacing solid worship with entertainment, jf that is not what they are doing, then tell me what these churches represent in a worship style?

HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN - HOW DO YOU KNOW WHERE WE ARE HEADED?

The signs have been there we just did not know how to interpret them. Gary McDade of the Getwell Church of Christ in Memphis said; "The Community Church begins as a parasite feeding off a thriving organism.” and "Older, established churches of Christ are funding the vehicle of their demise when they support the Community Church."

This thing has spread from the very Colleges and Universities that we support! Plus they send "planters" out to seed the "Community Church" programming. They have taken over churches so many times, which if you read the following you will recognize the signs.

Their elaborate plans start with a slow and gradual "seeding" that starts in a classroom, using materials from the "community church". It spreads like a slow moving cancer. Soon there is a building program to facilitate the expected growth. The building program is never really explained why it's needed to the church body, but they will be asked to pay for it.

Then shortly after that this cancer spreads, to more of the elders, and up through the church

officials where they are asked to fly out to Saddleback, for seminars and lectures on how their new process works.

While they are there, they will be given personality, and profile test, to see if they fit with their new team. Also they are asked to vow to secrecy agreements to prevent them from talking about any of this.

Meanwhile the cancer spreads, insidiously into the children’s department, where they change all the normal classroom teaching into one that furthers their goals for “their little future members”.

Then one day you find that you don't have a minister any longer, it's a "Praise Leader"

Little by little this scourge makes its way into all departments until one Sunday it raises it's ugly head in the adult classes where it boldly begins to take over for your normal teacher. By this time it has run off most of the good and Godly people that dared stand in the way. They are now just about in full control, except for the body (the members). If they experience any difficulty with the remaining elders or the members, they have people ready to fly in that are trained for this experience. They are called "mediators" or “facilitators” but they are really consultants who participate in causing the changes to be put into place.

Their job is to compromise your beliefs and to convince you that you really don't believe what you think you do. This is a complicated process and it has many steps. If you want to read more about the complicated process used, search out information on the founding principle on which it is based: The HEGELIAN DIALECTIC. This term is based on a man’s name, “Hegel, George Wilhelm Friedrich, 1770-1831 German philosopher. His all-embracing philosophical system, set forth in such works as Phenomenology of Mind (1807), Science of Logic (1812-16), and Encyclopedia of the Philosophical Sciences (1817), includes theories of ethics, aesthetics, history, politics, and religion.” The “dialectic”, comes from two opposing arguments being formulated (thesis and antithesis) which are then merged into an agreed synthesis or “compromise”.

THESE SIGNS HAVE BEEN AT THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST FOR SOME TIME!

1.    There is a small cluster of members in the Homebuilders Class that have embraced and taught the Saddleback materials. On 02-25-01 the class was told that "entertainment" should not be an uncomfortable word for the church.

2.    One or more of the Homebuilder class members, as well as one or more of the ministry staff have visited Saddleback, or Saddleback seminars. Now I wonder how many Elders have been to Saddleback?

3.    We have already had a building program that was far more than this congregation could afford. For whom was it built?

4.    The Madison Church of Christ now has a "Worship Leader" instead of a minister.

5.    Sunday school classes for the children and youth have been changed.

6 Good and Godly members have been run off or they have left.

7. And now we have a paid consultant, which we are told is a mediator, who really participates in causing the changes to come about. Not only that, but he promotes Saddleback's Book, "Leading Congregational Change" on his website.

YOU, THE MEMBERS ARE THE LAST OBSTACLE!

If you fail to believe anything that I tell you, I beg you to search out the truth for yourself.

There are a lot of ministers that have written about this problem, however some of it is only accessible if you have a computer and an Internet connection. I know that some of you don't have access to a computer and the Internet. I urge you to ask someone you know to print these materials out for you or otherwise help you research them.

I also urge those of you that have computers and Internet connections, to please print this report as well as articles on the web site and distribute them far and wide.

We have links going to some of this information from our web site, and we will have more. http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison

MY CONCLUSION

There is not a split in the membership at Madison Church of Christ! This whole problem was brought on by a small group of people within the church that have aligned themselves with outside influences within the community church movement.

This small group has used the tools furnished to them by Saddleback to subvert the will of most members by bringing on a community church program covertly.

The only split among the members is the perception of what is happening, because they haven't been honeslty told what is happening. They have pitted member against member, so that their small group is not to blame.

So it's not about old, or new. It's not about change as much as it's simply about; Do you want the Madison Church of Christ to join the community church movement, and the entertainment platform that replaces teaching the word of God?

SO WHAT DO WE DO?

We have given mere men “perceived moral and legal authority” over us within the church. I don't know about you, but once anyone uses me or intentionally deceives me they lose any perceived “moral authority” over me as far as I'm concerned.

There may or may not be a legal authority. That could be for a good lawyer to research and a judge to decide, should the members want to take that path.

If this small group of people trying to change the Madison Church of Christ congregation into something of their own worldly design succeeds, they will have stolen something from you that's dearer than bricks and mortar!

In the end we still have one vote. Each of us will have to ask ourselves where our support will best serve The Lord.

There are members in your midst that love you so much that they have been shouting from rooftops, trying to warn fellow members. They have lost sleep, prayed relentlessly, and endured intimidation, to let you know. They are devoted Christians. There are many.

One of those members I must credit for pointing me in a direction that made my research possible, is Bobby M. Johnson.

There are others.

The web site will be left in place so you can use it as a hub at; http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison

WHO ARE YOU?

I'm shy and the last person that wants to be called on to lead a prayer in public, to wait on the Lord's Table, or to greet members at the door. I'm the last person in the whole wide world that wants to bring you this message. However, when I discovered what was happening, I realized it was almost too late and I had been asleep!

"They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand." (Isaiah 44:18)

I couldn't believe how big and hideous this thing appeared to be. I looked around to see if someone was warning our fellow passengers about this storm. Surely there would be someone doing that. There were people warning them but no one seemed to be listening! I saw members that didn't understand what was happening, and they were begging for answers. If something were to be done, it had to be fast and it had to get everyone's attention.

I'm the last person in the world that wanted to do this!

But, I have been so blessed by God, and shaken by what I discovered, I couldn't refuse this call.

I was born in 1949, and raised in the Madison Church of Christ most of my life. Baptized by Ira North, attended David Lipscomb High School, and College. I was always taught to have great respect for the Elders, and the people of Madison Church of Christ. I was also taught to respect people older than me.

I am blessed with a loving Christian wife and two loving Christian children. The Lord blesses me in other things as well, to numerous to mention.

My mission is not over. I'll be taking this message to other churches, their members, and to anyone else that will listen.

The first thing I'll be doing though, is trying to find a person I know, that has already been through this at his former congregation. When his ordeal was over he said, "I'll be going in search of a humble fishing boat where the waters are calm, the nets are full, the crew is faithful, and Christ is the captain, because as Paul Harvey often said: "Now I know the REST of the story."”

I'm hoping this person will invite me to his church this Sunday.

With Christ In My Heart,

David Rhoades

A*THOUGHT**************************************************************

~k

You must either think that the actions of the elders have been at the direction of the Holy Spirit. Or you must think their actions were not directed by the Holy Spirit. If you think they were not, then who do you think was directing them?

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*

(Check only the box that most nearly describes your feelings)

[    ]    OPTION    1 -1 wish that the Madison Church of Christ would return to ifs

historically established format

Current member identified..................................................................329

Current member unidentified.................................................................42

Past member identified.........................................................................47

Past member unidentified........................................................................8

Unknown identified..............................................................................101

Unknown unidentified............................................................................29

TotaI Votes For Option ......................................................................556

[    ]    OPTION    2    -    I    wish    that    the    Madison    Church    of    Christ    would    change    into    a    more

hip and entertaining format

Current member identified.....................................................................0

Current member unidentified.................................................................6

Past member identified..........................................................................0

Past member unidentified......................................................................0

Unknown identified.................................................................................0

Unknown unidentified.............................................................................0

T ota I Votes For Option 2 .......................................................................6

NO VOTE - Ballot did not indicate choice

Current member identified....................................................................11

Current member unidentified..................................................................0

Past member identified...........................................................................0

Past member unidentified.......................................................................0

Unknown identified................................................................................15

Unknown unidentified..............................................................................1

Total Votes For Option 1.........................................................................27

TOTAL VOTES...........................................................................................................589

Identified = Name was present Unidentified=Name was not present Unknown=Member status not indicated

Whafs Your Opinion On The Elders Ability To Solve the Worship Format Problem?

Do you have faith in the Elders ability to solve this problem?

Yes, I think they will solve it.................................................................21.21 %    (14)

No, I don't think they can.....................................................................65.15 %    (43)

I'm not sure..........................................................................................13.64    %    (9)

Total votes: 66

Can You Say That You Have Been Fully Informed By The Elders of The True Nature of The Conflict at the Madison Church Of Christ?

Yes, I have been truly informed by the elders........................................14.06 % (9)

No, I have not been truly informed by the elders...................................85.94 %    (55)

Total votes: 64

Would You Be In favor of reducing the number of elders to 10 from the current 15?

No, we need 15 elders..........................................................................24.56 %    (14)

Yes, we don't need 15 elders................................................................75.44 %    (43)

Total votes: 57

Would You Be In Favor of a Reaffirmation of Each Elder ?

No. Elders should not be reaffirmed....................................................20.69    %    (12)

Yes, Each Elder should be reaffirmed.................................................79.31%    (46)

Total votes: 58

Are The Elders Being Honest With Their Members About Larry Sullivan?

Yes, I think they have been very honest about Larry Sullivan...........11.43 % (4)

No, They haven't been honest about Larry Sullivan..........................88.57    %    (31)

QUOTE

*


Total votes: 35

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"As a Christian warrior our only sword is the truth. and yes, it does burn like alcohol poured on an open wound. Does that mean you had rather not know the truth?"

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COMMENTS WRITTEN ON THE VOTING BALLOTS

THANKS FOR ASKING ME HOW I FEEL

.....WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE ELDERS TAKE A FIRM STAND AND MAKE THAT

ANNOUNCEMENTS.

WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE BIBLE.

27 YEARS.

A GOOD PERMANENT MINISTER WOULD BE VERY HELPFUL.

ADDED "AS IT SHOULD BE" (OPTION 1) AND WROTE "LET ME KNOW WHERE I CAN SEND MONEY IF NEEDED".

ADDED A CATEGORY "CHANGE TO A MORE PRAISING AND WORSHIPING FORMAT".

BUT PLEASE NO MORE "DRAGGY" SINGING.

CHANGED "WISH" TO "PRAY" (OPTION 1).

CHANGED SECOND OPTION TO "CHANGE TO A MORE WORSHIPFULL FORMAT. ALSO A NOTE THAT THIS WAS UNFAIR AND BIASED????

COMMENTS ABOUT THE SONGS.

DISEASED.

GOOD WORK.

IF ANYONE WANTS THIS (OPTION 2) THEY SHOULD GO TO DENIM AND DIAMONDS. LETTER.

LETTER SAYING SHE MADE COPIES FOR 2 OTHER PEOPLE.

MEMBER FOR 47 YEARS.

MEMBERS - RIGHT NOW.

MEMBERS AS OF NOW. THEY WANT TO WORSHIP, NOT BE ENTERTAINED.

MOVED MORE THAN A YEAR AGO. COPIED SISTERS BALLOT. SENT NEW ADDRESS.

NOT SO MUCH SINGING, PLEASE.

ONLY IF BIBLE BASED (OPTION 1).

PAST MEMBERS AS OF 9/2/01.

PLEASE HELP US GET OUR CHURCH BACK.

QUOTED SCRIPTURES.

REFUSED.

REPLACED "A MORE HIP ENTERTAINING FORMAT" WITH "MODERN SONGS AND MORE UPLIFTING" (OPTION 2).

REQUESTED MORE FORMS.

REQUESTED RESULTS BY MAIL.

SENT "NASTY" LETTER COMPARING SENDERS AS TERRORISTS.

SONGS TOO SHORT, TOO FAST.

SOON TO BE PAST MEMBER IF THINGS DON'T CHANGE.

THANK YOU FOR SURVEY.

THE CHURCH WAS STARTED & BUILT ON THE OLD WAY.

THE ENTIRE CHURCH IS IN MY PRAYERS. THANK YOU FOR THIS EFFORT.

THIS IS COWARDLY....ETC.

WE ARE FOR YOU ALL THE WAY.

QUOTE*FROM*E-

l* RECEIVE D* *********************************************

THANK YOU LORD. I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE.

ick'k'k'kickick'k'k'klckick

WHO IS LARRY SULLIVAN AND THE STRAUSS INSTITUTE?

HIS WEB SITE REVEALS A PARTICULAR TRUTH ABOUT HIM WHICH IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HE WAS DESCRIBED TO BE WHEN HE WAS PRESENTED TO THE CONGREGATION AND THE NEWSPAPER!

QUOTES FROM THE NASHVILLE TENNESSEAN "Elders at the Madison Church of Christ said Sunday they would bring in a church dispute resolution expert to help resolve the split developing in the church over worship styles."

"The Madison church's elders asked Sullivan to help them mediate their conflict after an elder worked with Sullivan in a dispute-resolution class."

"Church elders discovered Sullivan when one of them attended a seminar of his about how to handle church disputes, Hoppes said. Sullivan had served in Churches of Christ for 25 years before working at Pepperdine University, where he trains Churches of Christ to handle dispute resolution on their own and acts as a mediator in resolving church disputes."

"With other churches, Sullivan said, he has tried to speak with everyone involved to find out which issues are at the heart of the matter. He then facilitates discussion and problem solving among the parties."

"I call it eliminating the noise so they can hear each other and hear God," he said."

Do you think that Mr Sullivan offers an unbiased service of mediation to the Church?

Well first we understand that his group is being paid to offer his services.

Almost the same words used in the newspaper article were used to describe Sullivan’s role to the church by one or more of the elders and by Mr. Sullivan himself standing before the congregation.

SIMPLY VISITING HIS WEB SITE REVEALS MR. SULLIVAN’S REAL AGENDA AND POSSIBLY THAT OF MOST OF THE ELDERS.

The Headline of the web page is "Leading Congregational Change" which ironically is also the title of the book. Mr. Sullivan promotes at one of his web sites..

Here are direct quotes from one of his web sites:

“Rick Warren of Saddleback Community Church recommends that church leaders read "Leading Congregational Change"”

"Leading a church to change from being tradition- or program-driven to being purpose-driven is a task filled with all kinds of potentially explosive and divisive issues. This is a book [Leading Congregational Change] you ought to read before you change anything."

It appears that Mr. Sullivan is a change expert, not an unbiased mediator!

Mr. Sullivan, it appears is using "Consensus Processing" to achieve a predetermined result - a change in the worship format at Madison.

It appears that some of the Shepherds are not exactly being honest with their flock.

TRANSCRIPTION OF BEN JONES’ REMARKS AND CLOSING PRAYER,

UNEDITED 10/21/01

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8:00 AM WORSHIP

Ben Jones: Today I stand before you with a heavy heart. In all my 71 years I have never felt such grief. I am grieved by the obvious spirit of hostility and division in our church family. Families are divided. Church staff members are divided. The leadership of this body is divided. This division was confirmed by the mediator who publicly stated so.

After much prayer and searching of God’s word, I realize that I need to ask forgiveness of this church family. If I have offended anyone by doing or saying anything, I ask your forgiveness. I have no animosity in my heart toward anyone. I have tried to act as the duty of God’s word in 1 Timothy 5, 17 and 20. I believe that it is time for those of us who are deacons and elders to repent of any part that we have had in contributing to this division. Proverbs 6 tells us that God hates division. And I am going to ask the elders and the deacons to come and repent with me this morning, to join me in this repentance. Because, brothers and sisters, we have a deep, deep problem here at the Madison Church, (pause)

In Matthew 12:26 our Lord tells us that a divided house cannot stand.

I call upon this church body this morning to repent of the antagonism that has dimmed the light of Christ on this corner here and in this community.

For over 60 years this light has shown but I believe this light has almost gone out. I believe the baptized members of this congregation need to repent. I believe it is time for those of us who are in leadership to step down. (Speaking to someone) Yes, come on up.

(some muffled dialogue from Dale that cannot be heard)

Dale Bishop (apparently to Ben): Do you want me to lead the prayer?

Ben: Yeah.

Dale Bishop: Will you all bow with me please? Our heavenly father, as we approach your throne, we are remembering Lord that you are the Alpha, the very beginning and the Omega, the end. Lord, we know that this is your church and all these men that are standing on the stage and all those who are sitting, this congregation, humbly comes before you, Lord, confessing that we are sinners, that we fall short of what you would have us to be.

We ask you Lord to humble our hearts, get our hearts right, get our attitude right, but most of all, Lord, we plead with you to help us to get the church right in whatever capacity we are in, whatever we do, whatever we say, that your light shines through us.

We know Lord that we have difference of opinions a lot of times with our own families, husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, even among the staff, but this does not mean that we cannot have unity and have peace. Help us Lord that whatever we do again that you are the focus of our lives. Without you we have no hope of eternal life. Without you we don’t have the hope of the next minute. And, Lord, as the statement says we want to be united. We want to have peace. We want to be strengthened in your word. Guide us. Direct us. Give us the wisdom to see what we can do. Defeat us when we are wrong and hold us when we are right. Comfort us in your own hand as no one else can do.

For we pray this in Jesus' name,

Amen.

Ben Jones: Amen.

(slight pause)

Ben Jones: We are asking (clears throat) this church body if you will

stand and repent with us and if you will stand and show that you are committed

to seeking men who will lead this church. Will you do that now? (pause)

May God bless us. May once again our light shine in this community.

I pray it all in Jesus' name.

10:00 A.M. WORSHIP 10/21/01 (unedited)

Ben Jones: I am going to read the same thing that I read to the early service because I think that it is important that we all stand in judgment of the Lord.

(apparently reading) Today I stand before you with a heavy heart. In all my 71 years I have never felt such grief. I am grieved by the obvious spirit of hostility and division in our church family. Families are divided.

Church staff members are divided. And the leadership of this body is divided. The division is/was confirmed by the mediator who publicly stated that the division among the elders was clearly the main factor for the division of the congregation. After much prayer and searching of God’s word, I realize that I need to ask the forgiveness of this church family. If I have offended anyone by anything I’ve said or done, I ask your forgiveness. I have no ano, no animosity in my heart toward anyone. I have tried to act out of duty to God’s word as stated in 1 Timothy 5, 17 and 20. I believe it is time for those of us who are elders and deacons to repent for any part that we have had in contributing to this division. Proverbs 6 tells us God hates division. And I ask that those of you who would like to repent with me this morning for this division, I would like for you to join me right here on this stage, (no pause) In Matthew 12:26 our Lord tells us that a divided house cannot stand. I also recall that this church body needs to think of repentance also. Because there is so much antagonism in this body today that we have di.... We have dimmed the light of Christ that has shown in this community for over 60 years. Because of our inability to heal the wounds of division, it is time for this body of elders and deacons to step aside and yield to the church body who has

lost confidence in them. I call this church body to repentance. I would like to for you to stand with us at this time if you feel that there is a need to select leaders that will lead this church out of this division.

Will you stand? (pause)

Russ......

Russ Kersten: Let us pray. Our heavenly father, many of us have known, admired, loved these men standing on this stage for decades. Some of them have been among your most powerful workers for getting things done here. And, Father, they feel the need to repent. They feel the horror of division we all do. I want each of us here to do our best to meet with, to talk with, to talk through, whatever problems there may be for indeed some of the problems consist of simply not liking this contemporary worship. Father, just, just help us not to approach anybody or anything with the wrong attitude because so much of your Word is all about an attitude of love and forgiveness, so be with us as we struggle along. Father, we know we are a room full of sinners. There is nobody in this house today that is perfect and just help us see the way to go. We ask in Jesus' name, Amen.

Ben Jones: Amen.

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*

In April 1990, a Christian named Stephen Maphosah left Zimbabwe,

Africa, and traveled for his first visit to the United States. When he turned on a Christian radio station and listened to the music he was shocked:

"I am very sensitive to the beat in music, because when I was a boy, I played the drums in our village worship rituals. The beat that I played on the drum was to get the demon spirits into the people. When I turned on a Christian radio station in the U.S., I was shocked. The same beat that I used to play to call up evil spirits is in the music I heard on the Christian station."

What the Bible Says About Contemporary Christian Rock Music, 1990

From the article: The Pied Piper of Spiritualism by By Dirk Anderson Full article linked from: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison

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*

TRANSCRIPT OF TOM HADDON’S CLASS

HOWTO TRANSITION THE MADISON CONGREGATION TOWARD SADDLEBACK & HOLY ENTERTAINMENT

Tom Haddon’s Homebuilders class 2/25/01 (or 3/25/01 date unsure)

Transcribed by Bobby M. Johnson 5/30/01 thru 6/5/01 Madison member since 1985

Important Note: BMJ will show in parenthesis a brief phrase, words, or word to locate a particular paragraph or collection of messages from Tom’s class. No attempt is made to interpret Tom’s teachings and parables or what He means. Exact words are transcribed along with the spelling or misspelling to relate exactly how Tom pronounced the words. Please do not think BMJ to be illiterate or uneducated. Transcribing this tape was near impossible. Patience and Christian love

is needed. You must read, read, read,-----------------read    , and read again. Then when you are

through reading you must read again what Tom says to understand. This will be very clear as you proceed.

Tom Haddon (and only Tom) is talking:

1.    (Entertainment and holy entertainment - making words unobjectionable.)

Last week we talked about Entertainment. --Uh, that's kind of where we started. What we said was if the word entertainment does mean to divert ones attention, to cause to be pleasurable, to cause to be interesting, then that is what we’re here to do. --Um, and, and maybe it's time we stopped trying to hide from words because they scare people.---------

There comes a point when you have to have enough teaching on some thing where you realize that just because a word is maybe taken in a certain context, that that doesn’t mean the word is wrong. And sometimes instead of just not using it, what we need is teaching.

Does it mean we cannot we cannot use it for a while? But at the same time during that interim term we need to have teaching on it. We need to talk about it. Well what is it? And soon as I say the word “holy entertainment” there would be some who would go “ouu— ! You know I jus(t), jus(t), it sounds so—. But in a way that’s what we're here to do. We are here as Paul would say, “to take your eyes off what is seen and to put it on what? — what is unseen”. We are here to divert people’s attention —.

2.    (Leadership)

We spoke about leadership. I’m not going to say any more about leadership except to say there are principles I'm talking about. They apply in our family, our business, and in our church. There are people who have to be led and our leaders have to know where we’re goin’—. (BMJ”s Note: Tom describes an airplane trip to Columbus. A couple of older ladies talk about Cincinnati. Tom is worried that he has gotten on a plane to Cincinnati instead of Columbus.- short version.)

You know the most unsettling times in any situation in life is when you think you are on a road one place and all of a sudden things happen around you, and you may not understand them all and

you could be totally wrong, but all of a sudden you think you are on a train headed one place and, but you think the train is going somewhere else. That’s all I'm going to say about leadership.

3.    (Leadership - phase 2)

Leaders in the world know how to direct a train. They know how to get all the people on board. When I say all, realize that there may be people who get off because they don’t want to go to Cincinnati. And we have to accept that. There may be people who get off because they just want to go to Columbus and they don’t want to go over here. And we accept that. But we do whatever we can in love to get everybody on board and that takes time, and it takes patience, and it takes people who are being led by people who say, look we may have to divert a little bit here. We may have to fly around the storm. We may have to scoot over because we don’t want to hit headlong into an iceberg, but our basic direction is unchanged, and everybody knows where we are going. That’s all I’m going to say about leadership. Umm — let me say when I say that too, I think we have some wonderful leaders here. I really do.

4.    (No surprises, a morning shower and a surprise birthday party, & surprises in worship.)

No surprises. That was one of the things I had. No surprises. Sometimes you say you want us, you know, well you know when, let’s just surprise people when you get on an airplane an, an they think they are goin’ to Columbus an, but let's just send them to Cincinnati. You don’t want to be surprised. A lot of us know what it’s like to be surprised, don’t we? Surprises — you know how would you like a surprise shower — a surprise birthday party when you stepped out of the shower one morning? Sometimes that's what surprises in worship are like. You just feel violated all of a sudden you know. You just uh — uh. We don’t want surprises.

5.    (Teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach —.)

We want to teach about where we are going. We want to lead people. I was hopin’ an prayin’ I could say this in a way that didn’t turn people off. And that uh, that uh, that was humorous and still got a point across. We need to teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, and then when we

are through teaching, we need to teach some more. And many times it can’t just come from our pulpit. And we're in a precarious situation right here because we have no fulltime pulpit minister and that means we have to become teachers ourselves. And when we see people hurting we need to be about the business of healing those hurts, and helping those hurts.

6.    (Conflict, painting in black and white, now color is out, the struggle, and the clash.)

—    And the conflict comes in there because what’s the best way to me is not the necessarily the best way to others. And I have people who come in you know and they say can’t you just paint this in black and white? Can’t you do that? You know it’s been black and white for years. It's been —you know this, this is the way it is, — black and white.

And, and there’s a part of me that wants to rise up and say, you know we can paint it in black and white, yes — but have you ever seen color? Do you know color is out? You know the large screen tv’s are out. You want to say I can paint it in black and white but there's so much more.

We have a group of people who go to your leaders and say you know black and white is what we have had forever. Black and white is, black and white is what I grew up with.

—    And there comes the struggle. The issue of a generation raised with color and a generation raised to believe that black and white is reverent and black and white is holy. And you have a clash. You have a clash with the up and coming with what I call their sponsors. And many times these sponsors want to come in and say you can paint in black and white because, you know what, we paid for the brushes. And we paid for the canvas. If you're gonna paint, please paint like this. And you know in many ways they are right. And in many ways they are not right. How can we best do that?

(Important note by BMJ: This is Tom’s lead-in to describing Saddleback Valley Community Church, a Southern Baptist Church and a corporate organization, subsidized by the IRS and accountable to the state and federal government. As such: The 501 c3 Tax Exemption says — no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda (cannot preach politically incorrect sermons),or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation, and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements),any political campaign on behalf of ( or in opposition to) any candidate for public office. They teach you to use in your worship whatever cultural music is present in your community: jazz, pop, rock, rhythm & blues, etc. with choir, band, and/or orchestra accompaniment. Their teaching methods involve intensive indoctrination aimed at changing a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with a fixed and unquestioned set of beliefs, (convictions means a fixed or strong belief.) Free will succumbs to their ministry process. Saddleback is a New Age - One World Community Church.

Their Founder Rick Warren says “Your task is to discover and remove growth restricting barriers so that natural, normal growth can occur.” Brothers and sisters, that means their church planters will, slowly, thru teaching cause force to be used by our leaders, the Elders to force us to comply to their indoctrination or leave. This act by the Elders, the abuse of the Body of Christ against the will of the majority is actually a spiritual violation. If it was a physical act you could be sent to prison. You can also refer to this Contemporary Movement as a hostile take over.)

7.    (Saddleback Valley Community Church and a church on purpose.)

Being a church on purpose. I wanted to tell you a lot about that — uh — Saddleback church that I told you about. I’m only gonna tell you about one area that I saw when I got there. They have a purpose. In fact I stole these from them. They call them “Saddleback Sam” and “Saddleback Sally”. When you go in “Saddleback Sam” is standing right there — bring the lost to Christ and “Saddleback Sally” is standing right beside her (not him) to become more like Him. And in that when you pull in their parking lot they have a greeter ministry that is unparalleled with anything that I have ever seen in my entire life. You pull in their parking lot, but first of all you have to be shuttled into their building when you got 24,000 to 26,000 coming on Sunday morning. But when you pull into their parking lot, they have people stopping you asking you if you are a visitor thing that goes on your car right then, you go to another lane. They usher you all along.

All morning you got people smiling. They’re directing you to a certain place. You get out of your car. Somebody walks with you from the car to the building. As you approach the building you see these hoards of people. I don’t know what to call them: “crier-outs”. They are at tables that says: Nursery, 2 year olds, 3 year olds, 3rd grade, 4th grade, 5th grade, 6th grade all the way up. Your children, Barbie when you bring Travis and Michael and, and Collin and Austin there you don’t have to worry where they’re goin’. You meet the, you meet people in their class right then.

Travis has a friend, a little friend, gives him a coloring book and a thing that tells about Saddleback and the, just some things to do. They, they, they develop a bond right there. The parents meet you, they walk you, they show you where your kids are going to class and then they take you to class with them. They sit there, they find out things about you. They try to take you out to eat for that day before you leave or invite you over into their home.

It is a church on purpose. They are directed. They have a goal for what they’re doing and they are goin’ at it and in 12 years they have gone from 12 members meeting in a rented high school auditorium to last Easter just on the internet site 46,000 people came there last Easter in an area people told them, “it can’t be done”. Well you know what they decided to do? They decided to rollup their sleeves and get to work and be about the Lord’s business. They decided to have a purpose and to go for that purpose. I would love to tell you some more things about what they’re doin’ in there, but anyway —.

8.    (Edification, evangelism, and glorification.)

We're gonna go, 3 things when we come together and let me preface by saying this, you know, I am saying that to me that our assemblies, when we come together, should meet all of these

purposes: edification, evangelism, and glorification. You may have leadership in a certain place that, that your Sunday morning assembly that we’re not gonna do one, a certain one of these. That we’re gonna direct it in a certain way. And let me say that that’s their prerogative to do. If the leadership decides that our Sunday morning assemblies are goin to be directed in a certain area, then we as followers should have a duty to follow that. But, at the same time our leadership has to be, they have to look at the needs of the people, the needs of the community, and they have to look at that in a much broader scale than what anyone person wants or needs.

Um — so when I look at those 3 things, 3 things, I’m goin’ to call number 1 edification. When we come together is there anybody who, who would argue that we don’t need to be reaching in. That that's what we’re doin’. When I say edifying, encouraging or another, reaching in: Helping Mart, praying for him with his dad, helping, uh, Tambor with her hip and whatever else may be.

Being together, being a church, pulling together. When we come together, isn’t that what we need to be about? Is it? What about evangelism, reaching out? You know in, in especially, in within the context of the Churches of Christ we have always been about doin’ things that brings the outside in, that attract people to the church, uh, — we want people to come here, we want to have a service that’s uplifting that brings people to the Body of Christ, that talks about evangelism, glorification - reaching up. I think if there is any of these 3 areas that maybe the Churches of Christ as a whole have kinda gotten away from, I believe it is glorification. I believe it is reaching up. Sometimes we've stressed these so much that we've left out this 3rd one. But if you want to achieve a balance in any situation you've got to have all 3.

We will at some point go back to fill in some blanks there. I know I’ve left some holes. But I’m going to flip over — “bonk” — (Tom hits his microphone.) Sorry Jeremy — ha, ha — and I’m gonna uh, uh, aw, — I know it’s not hot in here. I can’t be hot, but Kevin told me he'd get me some hormones if I got too hot ha — ha. I ‘m just kidding.

9.    (The body)

I just tell you. I can’t say enough, I’m just overwhelmed at all the, at all the, all the things that, that I wished we had time to say. Uh, — when we come together on a Sunday morning, uh, the beautiful image of the body, that Paul gives us is an image of the body working together, of the hand, and the foot, the eye, the head all of these things, these things coming together of a sense of we can do all of this because we're working as a unit. And the thing that he says there, he says, um “Now you are the Body of Christ and each one of you is a part of it”. I think there is an emphasis there on each and every one of you. You know I think God has sent everybody in this congregation for a purpose. He has bought us here from the east, the west, the north, the south, and we're all here to fulfill some mission that God has bought to us, whether it’s the right wing, the left wing, the right brain, the left brain, the no brain, you know it doesn’t matter. We are all here to fulfill some purpose that God has brought.

10.    (“Riding the Winds of Change” and the builders.)

Have any of you read the book “Riding the Winds of Change”? — It is a great book. I would, I would suggest that you get it. It talks about 3 ways that are in every church, three ways that are in every church. The first one is the builders and I don’t know how much of this I’m going to skip, so if you don’t mind if I just hold it. It talks about the builders. In general, the builders are the older folks in, among us. They are our parents. Let me tell you this they are the parents of some of you in here. They are the grandparents, they are the grandparents of some of you in here, because I’ve hear, I’ve talked to some of them.

Tom Brokaw calls them the greatest generation, the builders of our society. They are the people who have solid expectations about what worship should be. Words like reverence and quiet, clear, peaceful, come to mind. They value tradition. They are the fabric of our society. He says pull them out of society and it will fall apart. He says pull them out of our churches and we may find out just

how lax some people have really been. He said they are doing things that nobody even realized they were really doing at times. — Um, cause you know they do things that the boomers, you know you go from the builders and you go to the boomers, they are doing things that the boomers say “well you know couldn’t we just hire somebody to do that?” You know, I mean, uh you really got to maximize you time and your energy and I, you know I’m busy at work, and I've got this and you just think, you know. And we announce a building program. We're gonna do, build, Vision 2000. In a little while it's gonna be Vision 8000, Odyssey One coming to you live from the Madison Church. But you know it’s there and the builders say you know, we get on this, the builders say you know, we could save some money if we — do it ourselves. That’s what the builders say. You know what the boomers say “you don’t want to be in any building I helped put together you know, you know.”

That’s what it’s, it's the difference and the, and the builders come back and they say, “you know, you just don’t get it. You just don’t understand. It’s not about money.” It’s about a purpose. It’s about all of these things, coming together, and. and they have words.

11.    (Uncomfortable)

They have words that, that I don’t like sometimes. Like uncomfortable, questionable, um and you think it doesn’t happen here: the boomers, the builders things. We had a builder at the last deacon’s meeting, who is very, very vocal. He’s very, very hurt. And he stood up and he said,

“you know I would like to know how many, how many people we do have on the payroll doing things that used to be headed up by volunteers.” Riding the winds of change in your church. They think that way. They think that way everywhere. We can’t just, they, they, don’t understand why I want to hire somebody to do this and do that because they were the builders. They built. What we must never forget is that we are builders too. And what they must never forget is that we are builders too. And what they must never forget is if that, is if, is if the building just stops with them, and they don’t teach us to become builders, by the older teacher the younger, and getting together that the church will die.

Because at some point every boomer has to become a builder. We have to build things. We have to build things that continually attract one another. But I want to talk about one and I'll have to end there. And uh — the word uncomfortable, the word uncomfortable. Um, it makes me uncomfortable. First of all, let me say this. Do you know we don’t have the right that to tell anybody that they can’t be uncomfortable? Do you realize that?

Let me ask you this. One year ago we didn’t have Wednesday nights. One year ago we didn’t have a praise team in Homebuilders. I want to raise my hand. I want those of you and don’t make me come to you. The ones of you who have told me that are now scared to raise your hands, just things and ways that we’ve worshipped in here a year and a half ago, how many were uncomfortable with some of that?

12.    (Uncomfortable about being insincere or humorous about the Lord’s Supper.)

— Look around I'm goin’ to tell you I have to be transparent to you. There's a song that Keith sings. And, and I want you to know where I’m cornin’ from, there’s a song that Keith sings that I absolutely love. —I shoulda had a glass of water before I tried this. I told somebody Wednesday night in Bixler she was sitting beside me and I looked over there and I said “oh, I feel sorry for you” and she said “I'm glad I’m sitting by you” and I said “oh, I sing loud and I sing off key you know. I just feel sorry for you.” But uh, the song he sings, you know, have you heard it? - “My Life is in You.” I love that song. My life, and every time we sing it. (Tom claps, people clap) My life (clap) is (clap) in you (clap) Lord (clap), my strength (clap) is in (clap) you (clap) Lord. I felt uncomfort(able) I love that song but we sang it one time when it made me uncomfortable.

It was down here for 3rd service that we were doing the Lord's supper. I did it really, um I heard this really beautiful talk about the Lord’s Supper. I hear these wonderful thoughts and we started

singing that song. And some people started to clapping. And you know all of a sudden the beauty of that song left me and you know what I was sittin there thinking “my life is (clap), in you (clap) Lord (clap). Here comes the bread (clap) now take a bite. Now there’s the juice and wash it down now (much laughter from the audience). Was it wrong? It was probably wrong for me to think thata way, you know, but it kinda hit me that way all of a sudden. And I was uncomfortable with it. You know I’m not going to throw the baby out with the bath water and say you know you know we don’t need to, we don’t need to do any of that. (Tom mutters - it's indiscernible.)

But I just say that there are always circumstances where even people like me whom I’ve told you before I’m gonna be on the clappin side of heaven. You know I’m gonna, if you want to look me up when we're there, you know, if there's anybody around there acting like they’re havin’ fun I’m gonna be right in the middle of um. That's where to go. And, and uh, there are even things that make us feel uncomfortable. We don’t have the right to expect that people are not goin’ to be uncomfortable. — Um — Um, - m - m - m — comfortable.

13.    (Not scriptural, little by little, slowly, and something behind what we were doing, teach and teach and teach and teach.)

That’s where we’re goin’ to end. We don’t ever need to tell somebody just get over it. Just get over it. Sometimes I’d like to say that, you know don’t you sometimes don’t you want to say, just get over it. But you can’t say that. We don’t ever have the right to be insensitive. But discomfort comes about, why? Discomfort comes about with a idea that worship service should make us leave feeling what ? — comfortable and you know that’s not necessarily scriptural but, where does that go back to? But how are we going to get over the idea that our worship services should leave make us feeling comfortable? It's not going to come about unless we’re teaching people about it. Unless we are teaching people that the things we are doing involving banners and praise teams and all these things are to bring the lost to Christ to become more like Him. It’s about edification to each other. It's about evangelism.

And aren’t there things we can do that would turn a group of people in a declining membership around that are not scriptural, that would make the word more attractive to other people. Is it goin’ to happen over night? No. It didn’t happen in here over night. We sang with a jukebox for 7 months, before we ever got a song leader. And we sang songs most of them didn’t they involved spirited singing but that was about it. And then you know we added songs in there. Keith did. A few people started clapping and others did. And it was a thing that just come about and it came little by little but you know what, in the meantime this class grew. And you know how many people we kept on board because we kept weeks and weeks and 5 months of talking about it and we introduced things slowly. And we had a purpose. And there was something behind what we were doin’ and we taught about it. And I go back to teach and teach and teach and teach and you know for those of us who constantly like new things and are pushing the edge, there are things I need to remember and this is where I want to close.

14.    (End, death, loss, grieving, closing a door, moving in another direction.)

That the beginning of something with somebody is always the end of something for somebody else. And you know what end is. End is death in some cases. Ends is a loss, end is — grieving. End is closing a door on something and moving in another direction.

And when I start using the praise teams and the — banners and the —, and all of this, and I’m wrapped in that and I like it and, and you know, and, and I feel closer to God when I do it. And, and I'm all enthused about it, what I forget is there's the people out there who haven’t been in on the planning and the praying and the knowing and the experiencing it little by little and the little grandmother that says, “you mean the services that I grew up here for 55 years — they’re not here any more?” — And the dad who says, “my kids, I raised um here, it just doesn’t seem the same.” And Mary sits at the back you know or in the middle and she says, “you know Tom, they took Face To Face out of these books.”— And I want to say YES, YES but look at what they

added, OUR GOD IS AN AWSOME GOD. You know where I jus(t)want to go you know but she looks and the tears start. And she says, “You know Tom, they sang Face To Face when we buried Jack, — Face To Face was Jack’s favorite song and it's not even in these books.” — And what I ignored, or maybe not intentionally ignored but forgot was that my wonderful mountaintop was her tragic conclusion to something. And without the teaching, teaching, teaching, teaching, teaching, it's not their fault. It’s not. And you know we need to go back and we need to say and look at her and grieve the fact you know that when we stick these tv’s and microphones and these banners and these screens come down. Yeah it looks a little bit different than when Julie’s wedding was here — and when we buried Jack. It does, but you know, if I don’t grieve the end of those things with them, if I don’t help acknowledge the loss and help them through that when I get back over here and Happy-Go-Tom and we’re gonna fly around on angel’s wings over here is so up. And where is Mary still gonna be? She’s gonna be back over here. And if she doesn’t think that Tom loves her enough not to get up in the pulpit and preach her a sermon about it but to go to her house and hold her hands and cry with her and walk her thru it and talk with her, then she’s never going. Because when she sees how much we love her and respect her I think she's a lot more willing when I get up there the next time to say you know what I know him and I know he loves the Lord.

Four little things really quick. Really quick. We’re jus(t) gonna mention um, on about how to deal with critics. Uhmm — . A. Affirm and acknowledge. Affirm their right to not like what we like. Hold their hands and say because by the same token we’ll have to turn it around and we'll want them to affirm our light, our right to like what they don’t like. Affirm that decision with them. And next reflect. When they say something to you reflect back on it what they said on it. You know we teach each other that in marriage and counseling. Say now is, is this what I understand you're sayin’. Let um know you hear what they’re sayin’ and that you’re talkin’ to um that we're both on the same team. And then lastly I’ gonna say plan’ pray and part in peace. Don’t think that you have to stop every time a critic or somebody stops you in the hall an’ “ wantna ya rrrrrrr”. Don’ think you hafta settle it right then.----------------------

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In 1981 Pastor Joe Meyers was driving down a jungle road in the Ivory Coast with several African pastors in the car. He reports:

I had recently received a couple of cassette tapes from our denominational headquarters that ere intended for our teenage daughter. These were recordings of various "Christian Rock" artists. In listening to the tapes, I was very disturbed in my own spirit...but not trusting my own reactions alone and realizing that these pastors whom I was traveling were very sensitive to the spirit world (both good and evil), I decided to play the tapes for them. The reaction I got was immediate and verbally violent! One of the pastors asked me this question:    "Do

you mean to tell us that this kind of music is played in your churches in America?" I answered in the affirmative. His response was filled with disgust and anger as he replied... "What are you doing allowing your church people in America to call up the evil spirits with their music?" Ibid

From the article: The Pied Piper of Spiritualism by By Dirk Anderson Full article linked from: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison

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INTERVIEW WITH GARY McDADE OF THE GETWELL CHURCH OF CHRIST

Dear brother Rhoades,

I appreciate your kind remarks about our efforts to warn of the dangers of the Community Church movement. Our prayers are with you in your struggles at Madison. I hope these interview responses will prove helpful.

Fraternally,

Gary McDade Getwell Church of Christ 1511 Getwell Road Memphis, TN 38111 901-743-0464, fax: 901-743-2197 email: B36016@aol.com

An Interview with a Concerned Member of the Madison Church of Christ Gary McDade

Dear Mr. McDade,

I am a concerned member of the Madison Church of Christ. As you may well know, we are in a struggle now with those that have aligned themselves with the way of Saddleback and the "Community Church" movement. Please, take this as a sincere thank you for your writings and web articles in reference to these things.

We are trying through our web site at http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison and other methods to let our members know what is going on.

One of the reasons for my email this morning is to ask you to participate in an email interview that could be posted to our web site for the knowledge of our visitors.

The interview is as simple as forwarding this email back to me intact with your answers to the below questions. It would then be posted in its entirety at www.network54.com/forum/150389. Thank you, for your consideration,

David Rhoades

Question

Mr. McDade would you tell us a little about yourself and the Getwell Church of Christ?

Mr. McDade

Certainly, but first may I say that following the reports of trouble at Madison in the Nashville Tennessean we have been greatly concerned and the congregation has been in our prayers.

I am a native of Memphis and have preached here since 1982 for three congregations. I am a graduate of Freed-Hardeman University and Southern Christian University. In December of 1999, the elders at Getwell invited me to consider the work with them. I was honored to accept. Getwell is perhaps best known as the publishers of The Spiritual Sword which enjoys a readership of about 30,000 and has subscribers in all fifty states and 87 foreign countries. Alan E. Highers, preacher at Getwell from about 1959 to 1969, has edited the quarterly journal since 1989. I serve as the annual lectureship director. We just completed the twenty-sixth annual lectureship on "The Glory of Preaching" this past October. Getwell also hosts one of the longest continually running radio programs in the Mid-South and perhaps the country called "The Truth In Love" which airs over WHBQ 56 AM each Sunday morning at eight o'clock. I am also a weekly participant on a

cable television program called "Friend of Truth" with Mike Hixson and John Shannon, Sr. The Getwell Church of Christ began meeting in July of 1950 and presently is overseen by our three elders, Ed Hagstrom, W.T. Hardwick, and Dewey Murray.

Question

How and when did you first become aware of the "Community Church" movement?

Mr. McDade

In August of 1995, the Harding Alumni magazine featured an article on the Downtown Church in Memphis that credited Evertt Huffard, professor of missions at HUGSR, with being the impetus behind the new church. The article presented some of the now classic indications of the Community Church movement, i.e., hand clapping in worship, praise team to replace a song leader, testimonials, the use of art as expressing devotion to God (they had created a twenty-five foot modern art mural of the crucifixion which still dominates the interior of the meeting place), and a casual, come-as-you-are dress code.

Subsequent to that time friends of ours that worship with an area congregation of the Lord's people became concerned when one of their elders stood before the congregation and raised a copy of Rick Warren's book, The Purpose Driven Church, and proclaimed that it would be used as their pattern for future growth. They asked me if I was familiar with the book. I was not. They asked me to obtain a copy and give them my impression of it. I found it on the best seller shelf featured in the entryway of the Baptist bookstore. Aware that it had been suggested reading in a local church of Christ, I was shocked to read the names recommending it in the flyleaf:

Bill Bright, Founder, Campus Crusade for Christ International; Jim Henry, President, Southern Baptist Convention; Jerry Falwell, Chancellor, Liberty University; Robert H. Schuller, Pastor, The Crystal Cathedral, Garden Grove, California; Adrian Rogers, Pastor, Bellevue Baptist Church, Memphis, Tennessee; Jerry Sutton, Pastor, Two Rivers Baptist Church, Nashville, Tennessee (It is a very sad commentary that our friends were unsuccessful in staving off the course charted by the elders and found it necessary to worship elsewhere).

About this time, reports of a new church in the Cordova area, a suburb of Memphis, calling itself Cordova Community Church began to appear in the Commercial Appeal. Gary Ealy from the Highland Street Church of Christ and John Mark Hicks, professor at Harding University Graduate School of Religion, reported that this would be a different kind of church "loosely affiliated with the church of Christ." (Initially, they located in the Harding Academy facilities in Cordova about a mile and a half from the Cordova Church of Christ to the west and about a mile and a half from the Woodland Hills Church of Christ to the east all on the same road. They commenced a series of mail outs as suggested in The Purpose Driven Church, chapter 11, pp. 185-203. These mail outs also went to those who were members of the church of Christ in that area). Currently, they meet in a rented facility in the Arlington/Eads area.

Locally the movement had and still enjoys the strong financial backing and support of several congregations including Highland Street and Harding Graduate School of Religion.

In March of 1999, I was invited to speak on the subject during the Memphis School of Preaching Lectureship. Material from that lecture was updated and put into a tract entitled "The Community Church" published by the Getwell Church of Christ. In October 2000, "The Community Church Movement" was the theme of The Spiritual Sword (32:1).

Question

The takeover at Madison Church of Christ appears to have been going on secretly and covertly for at least 7 or 8 years. Some of these people involved are not very nice. Sometimes we feel we are dealing with root evil rather than other Christians. Any Comment?

Mr. McDade

Sadly, Paul found himself "in perils among false brethren" (II Cor. 11:26). His reminder always is appropriate, and under the circumstances described is particularly needed: "Be not overcome

of evil, but overcome evil with good" (Rom. 12:21). One significant source that contributes to the kind of approach mentioned is Lynn Anderson's book, Navigating the Winds of Change. It put the brotherhood on notice regarding the methodology preferred by the "change-agents." In the book he suggests pressing for change to the breaking point and before the group blows apart back up a bit and let things die down then press again. In this way a group gradually can be ratcheted into an entirely new venue over a period of time. What has become obvious by now is that the change desired simply is to turn the church into a modern denomination. It was Anderson who years ago made the odious statement, "The church is a big, sick denomination." Since that time his writings bear out the point that his efforts consistently have been to transform the church into a big, healthy denomination.

A member at Madison gave me an example of what you mention. He said those who oppose hand clapping and praise team presentations are being referred to as "Zenos." Zeno was a Greek philosopher who lived in the fourth century BC and is the founder of the Stoics. Stoics were taught to be without passion or feeling. This offensive labeling is an attempt to sidestep the critical issue of HOW a worshiper's passion for God and depth of feeling for him appropriately are to be expressed in worship. Let these insensitive brethren show from sacred scripture where true worship that includes passion and feeling for God is expressed through clapping of hands and dramatic skits presented by the so-called praise team. Paul taught that the actions displayed in worship are subject to the spirit of the worshiper and that God is a God of order and does not create confusion (I Cor. 14:32-33, 40). A true and faithful presentation of the Bible's teaching on HOW to worship yields five avenues or channels through which the worshiper expresses his passion and feelings toward God. They are praying (I Thess. 5:17), singing (Eph. 5:19), preaching (II Tim. 4:2), the Lord's supper (Acts 20:7), and giving (I Cor. 16:2). These authorized avenues of adoration are far in advance of raucous, unregulated hand clapping and playacting that vainly struggles to convey some axiom of actuality.

In all walks of life those effective in promoting harmony even when disagreements arise demonstrate the ability to disagree without becoming disagreeable. A great biblical principle is stated by the apostle Peter on this point: "Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful [full of pity or 'tenderhearted' ASV], be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it" (I Pet. 3:8-11). One brother recently observed, "A man who rebels at the simple commands of God, such as baptism, giving, the Lord's Supper, etc., will never rise to the higher commands, such as the love of enemies" (Howard Winters, "Don't Lose Your Love" in the bulletin of The Highland Church of Christ, Dalton, GA, Barry Gilreath, Jr. editor, 2:37, p. 2).

Question

I'm not sure I'm qualified to ask all the right questions this morning. If you would, please use this space to inform the concerned members at Madison, and other concerned members around the country, with any message that will help us in reference to the take over of the "Community Churches."

Mr. McDade

We now know the source/sources from which erring brethren are drawing their pattern for this movement. Recently a Baptist paper in Dallas interviewed the highly popular writer Max Lucado who is a preacher from San Antonio, Texas. In the review, among other compromising statements, he said he would make a good Baptist. Lucado told the reporter that he had been invited to come to Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois in 1988 but was advised to stay put for the time being. Willow Creek Community Church with its founder Bill Hybels is the current model others such as Rick Warren from Saddleback in Orange County, California are imitating. The obvious motivation for this imitation is the rapid growth of Willow Creek Community Church. However, people ought to be aware that Willow

Creek and Saddleback are both located at the epicenter of areas experiencing a population explosion. Rick Warren states this as the reason he chose the Saddleback area (p. 34). In addition, both Hybels and Warren state in their writings that they believe they were and are being directly led by God (cf. e.g., p. 26 of Warren's book). Such a view is false doctrine (II Pet. 1:3; Jude 3; Rev. 22:18-19). Now that these sources have been exposed brethren may apply Romans 16:17-18 in resolving the issue: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Question

Among all the concerns we worry about, one in particular is troubling. According to one of your articles, magazines have published information about the embracing of the "Community Church" movement by many of the Christian Colleges. Before we send our children off to school, are there any specific questions that we could ask of those college presidents? I'm talking about questions they can't dodge, that would let us know the truth of whether their school embraces this?

Mr. McDade

First, endeavor to establish the commitment to and conviction about the Bible being the inspired, infallible, all-sufficient will of God because leaders in the Community Church movement believe they are being led directly by God in addition to his will as revealed in the Bible. The question must not only include the vital points of the plenary (full), verbal (word for word) inspiration of the Bible as is taught in II Timothy 3:16-17, but the point of the Bible constituting the complete will of God must be addressed today. The Crux of the Matter written by three professors from ACU serves as an example of why this point must be covered. These professors state that they believe they are continuing to be "guided into all truth" (cf. pp.164, 193; cf. also the October 2001 issue of The Spiritual Sword, 33:1, which provides a critical review of this book). If so, the Bible does not represent "all truth." DLU in Nashville has as a Bible teacher a man who preached in Memphis before being hired that published an article stating, "God communicates primarily through his word but not exclusively through his word. God does speak to us directly." I challenged him on this point and to my knowledge he has never changed his position. (The article was titled "God Is Alive" by Scott McDowell. I will be happy to furnish a copy to anyone who requests it). The Bible is being rejected as a pattern on the basis that God currently is guiding selected men into unrevealed areas of truth. A prayerful, diligent study of Hebrews 8:5 and 9:23 is needed today. Additionally, Michael Moss at DLU is on record as holding the view that the Bible was not written to us but was preserved for us. Therefore, a pointed question would be: "Do you and your Bible faculty believe and teach that the Bible is written to us today and is the fully and verbally inspired word of God which is authoritative, all-sufficient, and complete?" I kindly emphasize: It is not enough to ask, "Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?"

Second, "Do you and your Bible faculty believe that the name 'church of Christ' and the teaching about the church as it appears in the New Testament represents the exclusive body of the saved on earth today?" Again, the question needs to be asked so as to disallow the opportunity to dodge or hedge. For example, if the question was "Do you believe that all the saved are in the body of Christ?" A "yes" answer may mean that at leastcertain denominational churches may harbor saved people in them because the view is widespread that holds that all the denominations together constitute the body of Christ. A study of I Corinthians 12:13 and Ephesians 1:22-23, 4:4, and 5:23 should prove helpful in this connection. Although the Bible says, "The churches of Christ salute you" an emphasis exists to be embarrassed by and to get away from the name church of Christ (cf. Mark 8:38). See, for example, Flavil Yeakley's comments in The Christian Chronicle, 53:7 (March 2000), p. 18. He is a Bible professor at Harding University in Searcy, Arkansas.

Third, ask about the worship services your child will be engaged in on campus and on the Lord's day. If he or she cannot worship "in spirit and in truth,"a serious danger exits (Heb. 10:26). Therefore, a pointed question in this regard would be "Do you allow hand clapping, skits, praise teams, instrumental music-type sounds created vocally, and testifying in worship and

devotional services?"

Fourth, are the members on your board of directors/advisory board/board of regents/and trustees sound in the faith? How would they answer the aforementioned questions? Are any of them known to have made compromises with denominationalism? Are their names and addresses publicly posted and accessible, for example, on the school's web site, in addition to appearing in the college catalogue? Would you hire a Bible teacher who attends a Community Church? Would you dismiss a Bible teacher who attends a Community Church?

Finally, the duty and right to ask questions about those "tutors and governors"entrusted with the nurturing and developing of our precious children must not be relinquished without impunity (Gal. 4:2). Only those schools as serious about the spiritual welfare of our children as are we should be considered deserving of our respect and support. A Bible college or university should deepen the faith and strengthen the resolve of students under its influence to live a faithful Christian life. It should exalt Christ and the church of Christ (Eph. 3:21).

Conclusion

QUOTE

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Christ died in order to bring the church into existence (Eph. 5:25). It represents the strait and narrow way that leads to eternal life (Matt. 7:13-14; Acts 9:1-2). The wise man knew that a way could exist that had the potential to seem like the right way yet lead to destruction. He wrote, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Prov. 14:12). Jeremiah knew that man inherently does not have within him the ability to successfully direct his own way to God. He wrote, "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23). We need now more than ever to redouble our resolve to "seek the old paths" contained in the Bible, for it is "the good way" (Jer. 6:16).

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"Force is the last resort of every false religion. At first it tries attraction, as the king of Babylon tried the power of music and outward show. If these attractions, invented by men inspired by Satan, failed to make men worship the image, the hungry flames of the furnace were ready to consume them. So it will be now." Ellen Go White, Signs of the Times, May 6, 1897

From the article: The Pied Piper of Spiritualism By Dirk Anderson Full article linked from: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison

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In response to a preliminary copy of a "Covenant of Membership" that was drafted by Buck Dozier

The Covenant of Membership

BucDozier’s Preliminary

‘Covenant of Membership”

with

the Madison church family

BuckDozier and the other Madison Church of Christ Elders have aligned themselves with certain “outside influences”. These influences have helped the Elders “LORD”over the membership unscriptural beliefs, teachings, and doctlheis.these actions Buck, certain other Elders, certain teachers, and certain members have divided the congregation into two different groups of differing beliefs. To learn more of our possible future and what may be in store for us please read on.

Onesuch outside influence is tlSeaddleback Valley Community Church in California.

The philosophy of this Corporation/Organization seems to have convinced Buck and the majority of the Elders to the point of ignoring the Word of God that our future salvation and the solution to Madison’s dwindling membership and contributions depends on following the example of this worldly church founded by Rick Warren in 1980. Much of the power gained b^addleback i$hru the COVENANTS signed with its members.

Rick Warren useRockMusic and little or no reference to thmattractive notions of sin to attract new members. These new members are then required to sign a COVENANT that commits them to tithing plus participation in a small group, a lay ministry, and a missions outreach. New members who study f&kUdleback in their series of high-commitment purpose-driven classes are required to sign further covenants before they can progress to the next classes. These members become “pastors”and then are sent out as “church planters”into existing churches like Madison Church of Christ to gradually change the church from a traditional church founded by Jesus Christ into a “contemporary” church like the one founded by Rick Warren. This guarantees Saddleback an income from members and they in turn attend and bring in others to attend the Saddleback ‘Conferences”and “Seminars” which in turn brings in wealth to the church/Rick Warren. Please verily what I have just told you by getting on the Internet and go toSaddleback’s web site:

http://www.purposedriven.com and browse around as much as you can to learn about their ways. You must look deeply

and in detail. They do not talk about SIN or REPENTANCE. Their worship is centered on all kinds of MUSIC in the contemporary and cultural sense. There is aHtoxjts Music.

To verily about the covenants go to the specdfidbpage below:

http://www.purposedriven.com/pdc/saddleback_20th/saddleback_20th.htm

The Madison Elders have sent Frank Scofidddleback to leam from them. Tom Haddon has been Saddleback and has taught the Homebuilders Class about their methods. Tom has prophesied that the church as we know it will be efraermptetelv and our songbooks with their old songs will be taken away. A tape of Tom’s teachings on February 25, 2001 has been transcribed and studied in ddptfch division was taught at Madison on February 25, 2001 by Tfefaaddon.

Larry Sullivan who was brought to Madison by BiIMzier and the Elders promotes a book titled, leading Congregational Changg. Larry is also the Assistant Director of the Pepperdine annual Seminar of the same nfflrasading Congregational Changg.

The above book promoted by Larry Sullivan is reviewed by Rick Wa&add(leback Valley Community Church founder) at the Straus Institute website. Mr. Sullivan of course is directlyionnected with Straus Institute.

Now with all of that said, I ask you; if you allow Madison Church of Christ to continue on the present course, do you think that there may be, possibly, just possibly, a COVENANT in your future somewhere at some time?

We have to agree that this covenant has not been given to us-------yet! But you must

admit how worldly BuclDoziei; the Elder is in his view of what he perceives his authority to be, whether this was his idea alone or in concert with others.

What does God’s Word say about what we refer to as covenants?

Matthew 5:37‘But let your communication be, Yea, ydd^y, nay: for whatsoever is more than theseometh of evil.” (Jesus’ words)

Titus 1:9 ‘Holding fast the faithful word as bteath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convincegthffiLsayers.’’g;ainsayers => those who oppose it)

II Corinthians 2:17 ‘For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight ofGspbak we in Christ.”

I Peter 5:12 ‘But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; andi^umay; les^e fall into condemnation.”

IICorinthians 9:7 ‘Every man according as Ipairposethin his heart^o let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for Gdxsketh a cheerful giver.”

Galatians 5:1 “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Chhiath made us free, and be not entangled with the yoke of bondage.”

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ teaches us that we should say “yes” or “no”, but not vow or take an oath! Christians should not make covenants that require vows, oaths, or sacred promises. When we speak we are to speak as sincere men and women of God, whose word is honorable, so we do not bind ourselves in any way with vows or oaths or sacred promises. Drotsign or make any covenants, oaths, promises, or vows in any Christian context. Jesus Christ came to deal with the human heart. The Law of Moses allowed oaths as safeguards against the dishonesty ofmen under the Law, who had not experienced the new birth into the new creation of Jesus Christ. He, Jesus Christ, forbids oaths and vows altogether in the New Testament. By doing this He accomplished the real purpose of God’s Law.

We must compare thmdisputable actions of each Elder with Scriptures and determine if what Buck was working on was what an Elder should consider as teaching and leading and watching over the flock. Seems like an Elder should, “Abstain from all appearance of evil.” I The ssalonians 5:22 Why don’t you ask brothdDozier about this? See what his personal opinion is.

This is simply what I have found in the Word of God regarding things that are perceived as covenants.

Bobby M. Johnson, member Madison Church of Christ

*********************

David Lipscomb on Church Authority

Whenever a man or set of men . . . assume to exercise authority in a church by virtue of some official appointment, or to assert, they have rights and authority as officers above others and assume to exert their rights without the full consent and approval of the members, they should be resisted even to the disruption of the body. They are lording it over God’s heritage, and are exalting their authority at the expense of the authority of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. One man, in the assertion and maintenance of the Divine will, has as much authority as another, more than a thousand ordained ones in disregard of that will. The only reason we have seen from Scripture for appointing certain individuals to special work was to see that neglected work was performed. The seven at Jerusalem were appointed to see that the Grecian widows, neglected in the daily ministration were fed. Titus was sent to set in order the things "wanting," and to place Elders in their proper work.

Whenever a man in the church of Christ claims authority or exercises power merely on official ground, he is essentially a pope and claims the prerogatives of papacy as fully as does he of Rome. He may be a smaller one, his sphere of action may be more limited, but the principle is the same. All the evils of the papacy arise out of the claim of the Pope and his council to decide questions by virtue of official position.

- Gospel Advocate, 1877, Page 232

A Study of the Madison Church of Christ Elders and Their Actions

(10/7/01)

Before this study can begin, certain criterion must be set to see if our determinations are based upon judgment or simply statements of facts and comparison to Scripture/the Word of God.

There are two areas that Elders must be concerned with in leading the congregation: (1) Spiritual Matters of Faith and (2 iPhysical Matters of this Earth.

Spiritual Matters of Faith - These are matters that are not open for the Elders to vote on. They are simply matters determined by God and also bjtfrBuDdur Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The Word of God is forever settled in heaven. Psalms 7/9:ff9No thing. not even the smallest iota shall pass from God’s law until all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18 The Elders are not to add to nor take away from the words written in the book of the Word of GoRevelations 22:18-1.1No Elder is to follow the lead of another Elder for any re as iCorinthians 4:6. These things never change.

Hebrews 13: 7-9 Elders teach, lead, and watch over the flock only where the Word of God exists without changing it or voting on it.

Physical Matters of This Earth - These are all other matters such as: when to hold a gospel meeting, howto arrange and where to place the Sunday School classes to best fit the needs of the congregation and the age groups, when to paint and lay carpet as long as no major expenditures are required, who to call to repair the air conditioning, etc. Many ofthese can and should be delegated to the Deacons. Elders can decide how and where missionaries are to be sent and the details connected with this. How we should help in disaster relief efforts. Elders should find and evaluate who our next minister should be and communicate all facts to the congregation. The Elders should vote on things that support the physical parameters ofteaching and leading the flock, the congregation, the Church of Christ at Madison.

The concept otidgment must be understood. Judgment is the capacity to appraise discriminate, and to compare, and so arrive at a sound evaluation; discernment. It is the assertion of something believed; idea; opinion. So we must not judge anything that will effect anyone’s soul in a way as to cause that person to stumble or to becoiie lost. Corinthians 10:32 Romans 16:178c Romans 14:21 Actions of the Elders that cause others to stumble or become lost must be pointed out by admonishing, reproving, and rebukingPhilmvians 2:12-15 We can only consider the real facts ofthe actions ofthe Elders that are known in to be in contradiction to the Word of God. If they have led the congregation in a way so as to cause someone to stumble or become lost then they are no longer acting in the capacity of an Elder, Shepherd, or an Overseer and they must be evaluated by comparing their actions to God’s Word. Even Elders must submit to God’s

will. Deuteronomy 7:9

The Elders are exerting authority where they have rMatthew 28:18 Thereis no mention of Elders in the verse or in the cont e^mbrews 13:17, 7. or 24tead carefully IPeter 5:1-5

The Elders have turned away from sound doctrine. They have turned to the doctrine of men teaching and following the patternSbfddleback Valley Community Church, allowing women to teach and lead over young men who are baptized, allowing unscriptural music and ‘holy entertainment”, and specifically speaking where the Bible is silent.2f Timothy 4:2-4.

The Elders have divided the church over the above chdmjgesd on the churchl

Corinthians 1:10, Matthew 20:25-28Acts 20:28-31

Elders are under the same authority of Jesus Christ and God as are all of us in the church. They have been warned. Now is the time for us to reject them andidatiKBg to do with them.Tito 3:8-11. They are to be rebuked before all, publicly (the congregation). Timothy 5:19-29

To know how God feels and thinks about his children, please read cajfefelhi/fl/i 10:21-22& Jeremiah 23:1-4

You may read of an example of how to ‘let another take” the place of a leader in the congregation, how Peter and the remaining Apostles and the disciples replaced Judas after he killed himse lftfcA 1:12-26 KJB ‘These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the womeand Maty the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. ’Acts 1:15 KJB “And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)” Acts 1:16 KJB. “And they appointed two, Joseph callBdmabas, who was sumamed Justus, and Matthias.’Acts 1:23 KJB AND THEN THE 120*VOTED. “And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:26 KJB.

*Voted = gave forth their lots » Lot = Any of a group of nearly identical objects used in making a determination, choice, or selection.

The Apostles alone did not choose Matthias just Themselves . The Madison Church of Christ Elders chose among themselves alone (just the Elders) in recent years. The last Elders were chosen that way. The entire congregation recently has had no choice or voice at all. The voice that was expressed fell upon deaf ears. That is not scriptural.

Bobby M. Johnson, member Madison Church of Christ

TO THE ELDERS OF 683 CHURCHES OF CHRIST IN THE CHANNEL 5 VIEWING AREA

From : TheConcemedMembers of the Madison Church of Christ November 19, 2001

To: The Elders of683 Churches ofChrisTine Channel 5 Viewing Area

Reference: Letter you received from a majority ofthe Elders dated April 13,2001 and signed by John Broadway

Dear Brothers;

We are sorry we have to write to you today.

This letter is in reference to a letter our Elders wrote to you on April 13, 2001 concerning a news story on News Channel 5 about the controversy at the Madison Church of Christ.

In that letter our Elders told you that

"The controversy seems to be over-reaction to change. The main things we have done in the 10:30 service are introduce more upbeat praise songs, give less time to the sermon, and give greater emphasis to the Lord's Supper. This embraces a more contemporary format, of course, but we don't feel that it departs from scriptural worship."

We now know that what they told you was not the true nature ofthe controversy. A majority ofthe Elders that approved that letter to you knew or should have knowp that

1) One ofthe church's own ministers , JinHinkle, was quoted in the "Madison Marcher" in reference to the new, contemporary service "We will not be still, we will not be quiet."
2) On February 25tIHTddDn in his "Homebuilders" Sunday school class, was giving specific instructions on how to transition the churches members over to the saddleback Community Church" [Calvinist] programs of "Holy Entertainment" He talked ofthe well laid plans not known by everyone.
 3) By the time you received our Elder's letter, clapping, praise teams, and the raising ofhands had already been introduced at the second service at the Madison Church of Christ.
4) A "Worship Leader" was now in charge ofthe services, not a minister.

5) The children's Sunday school had already been changed to one that had more "entertainment", and less bible learning. A young female church minister had already been assigned to teach young baptized males. By the time you received this letter many godly members had left the church.

It is for these reasons that we contend that you were not told even the essence ofthe truth about the controversy.

As members ofthe Madison Church of Christ, we take the unusual step of "retracting" the letter you received from a majority of our Elders on April 13, 2001.

We do not take our responsibility for the actions of these men lightly. If we had not been asleep, we would have never let these men lord over this congregation.

Please Pray For Us All ConcemedMembers

72 348  4.5.25. 990

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