Jesus died to give the sons FROM God who are taught BY GOD
to SPEAK or READ only the Word, Logos or regulative Principle
to give people REST from Scribes, Pharisees, Hypocrites.
THE PROPHECY OF MOCKING JESUS:
Jeremiah 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted
thee,
hath pronounced
evil against thee,
for the evil of
the house of Israel and of the house of Judah,
which they have done
against themselves to provoke me to anger
in offering
incense unto Baal.
Jeremiah 11:18 And the LORD hath given me knowledge
of it, and I know it:
then thou
shewedst me their doings.
Jeremiah 11:19 But I was like
a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter;
and I knew
not that they had devised devices
against me, saying,
Let us destroy the tree with
the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land
of the living,
that his name
may be no more remembered.
Those who get a vision to MOCK JESUS in
fulfillment of prophecy ALSO rush to remove CHRIST
from their public confession.
-mansŭesco , I. Act., to tame,
to make tame B. Trop., to
render mild, gentle, or peaceable:
“nam me jam ab orationibus dijungo fere, referoque ad mansuetiores Musas,”
Cic. Fam.
1, 9, 23: “ira,” Ov. Tr. 3,
6, 23.—
dēlūbrum , i, n.
de-luo, the place of expiation, cella [holy place as
a house only for a god]“noctu
audita
ex
delubro
vox
est,
etc.,”
Liv. 29, 18:
“so
coupled
with
templa,”
id. 30, 20:
wickedly, profanely illūdo to play
at or with any thing, to sport with,
amuse one's self with (syn. colludo; cf.
ludificor). 1. To make sport or game
of, to jest, mock, or jeer at,
to ridicule (class.).
1. To scoff or mock at, to
make a laughing-stock of, to
ridicule ipsa
praecepta
(rhetorum),”
Cic. de Or. 1, 19, 87:
“voces
Neronis,
quoties
caneret,”
Tac. A. 14, 52:
verbis virtutem superbis, Verg. A. 9, 634.—
Mūsa , ae, f., = Mousa,
I.a muse, one of the goddesses
of poetry, music,
“Musarum
delubra,”
Cic. Arch. 11, 27:
“hic
Musarum
parens
domusque
Pieria,
Mela,
2, 3, 2: crassiore
Musā,
A. A song, a poem: “musa
procax,”
Hor. C. 2, 1, 37
koma A. deep
sleep, “autō
. . malakon
peri
kōma
kalupsa”
Il.14.359;
“ē
me
. . malakon
peri
kōm'
ekalupsen”
Od.18.201;
“kakon
de
he
kōma
kaluptei”
Hes.Th.798;
“hupnou
k.”
Theoc.Ep.3.6:
metaph., of the effect of music, Pi.P.1.12.
2. Medic., lethargic state, coma, “kōma
sunekhes,
oukh
hupnōdes”
Hp.Epid.3.6
Dumb means the inability
to MEDITATE on what is going on.
cōgĭto
The command is to SPEAK the Word and MEDITATE in
the heart: not to make music. Cogitation in a
rational sense can be stopped by (d).
With de: “cogitavit
etiam
de
Homeri
carminibus
abolendis,”
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he
opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to
the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers
is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isa 53:7
Oppressed is from the
Hebrew:
Nagas (h5065) naw-gas'; a prim. root; to
drive (an animal, a workman, a debtor, an army); by
impl. to tax, harass, tyrannize: - distress, driver, exact (-or),
oppress (-or), * raiser
of taxes, taskmaster.
The burden Jesus died to
remove was:
Phortizo (h5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to
load up (prop. as aa vessel or animal), i.e. (fig.)
to overburden with
ceremony (or spiritual anxiety): - lade, be heavy laden.
Phoros (h5411) for'-os; from 5342; a load
(as borne,) i.e. (fig.) a tax (prop. an individ. assessment on persons or property; whereas 5056 is usually a gen.
toll on goods or travel): - tribute.
pherō pherō
2. carry away as booty
or prize, enara, teukhea,
Il.6.480,
17.70; “ aiga
leonte
ph.” 13.199; deipnon
ph., of Harpies, A.Eu.51;
“ enekhura
bia
ph.” Antipho 6.11;
in the phrase pherein
kai
agein
(cf. “ agō”
1.3), IG12.69.19; pheronta
ē
agonta
Lex ap. D.23.60; “ ai
ka
. . agē
ē
pherē”
Leg.Gort.5.37; “ hērpazon
kai
epheron”
Lys.20.17;
“keirōn ē
pherōn”
IG12(9).90.10
(Tamynae, iv B. C.); “ ai
tis
ka
. . pherei
ti
tōn
en
ta
hiara
ga”
Tab.Heracl.1.128;
of a divorced wife, “ ai
de
ti allo
pheroi
tō
andros,
pente
statērans
katastasei
kōti
ka
pherē
auton”
Leg.Gort.3.2; pherein alone, rob,
plunder, “theōn hiera” E.Hec.804;
“ allēlous”
Th.1.7;
abs., SIG38.23
(Teos, v B. C.):—Pass., “ pheromenoi
Bakkhōn
hupo”
E.Ba.759:—Med.
in same sense, “ enara”
Il.22.245;
“ pelekeas
oikonde
ph.” 23.856; “ aterpea
daita”
Od.10.124,
cf. 15.378.
ena^ra , ōn, ta, ( enairō)
A.arms
and trappings of a slain foe, spoils, “ pherein e. brotoenta” Il.6.480;
“ pheromai” 8.534;
poll' e. Trōōn taken from
them, 13.268;
so “ e. brotoenta Dolōnos” 10.570:
generally, spoil, booty, tēn [ phormigga] “ aret' ex enarōn” 9.188,
cf. 6.68,
Hes.Sc.
367.--Ep. word (used by S.Aj.177
(lyr.)) for Trag. skula, laphura.
phorm-igx ,
iggos, hē,
A.lyre,
freq. in Hom.,
esp. as the instrument of Apollo, “ phormiggos perikalleos hēn ekh' Apollōn” Il.1.603,
cf. 24.63,
Od.17.270,
Hes.Sc.203;
of Achilles, “ phrena terpomenon phormiggi ligeiē kalē daidaleē” Il.9.186;
with seven strings (after Terpander's time), heptaktupos, heptaglōssos, Pi.P.2.71,
N.5.24;
“ antipsallōn elephantodeton ph.” Ar.Av.219
(anap.).
2. ph. akhordos, metaph.
for a bow
the Demon son of Zeus like HERMES was
the god of thieves and liars.
keirō , fut. Theoc.14.46;
v. khrōs
1.2,
egkuti;
shear sheep, “ makhairai
kourides,
hais
keiromen
ta
probata
kai
tous
poimenas”
3. metaph., ' fleece', plunder, “ tēn
mammēn”
Herod.3.39.
2. ravage a country, esp. by
cutting down crops and fruit-trees, “ to
pedion”
Hdt.5.63;
“ temenos”
Id.6.75,
cf. OGI765.10
(Priene); “ tēn
gēn”
Hdt.6.99,
Th. 1.64;
“ khōran”
Aen.Tact.15.9;
destroy, “ polin”
Call.Fr.1.60 P.;
also, clear, of pioneers, “ oros”
Hdt.7.131:—Pass.,
of a country, to be ravaged, “karēnai” Id.4.127,
cf.
3. ekeire
polukerōn
phonon slaughtered
many a horned beast by hewing,
S.Aj.55.
1. tear, eat greedily, of beasts, keirei
t'
eiselthōn
bathu
lēion
onos]
Il.11.560;
of fish, “ dēmon
. . epinephridion
keirontes”
21.204;
of vultures, “ hēpar
ekeiron”
Od.11.578,
cf. Luc.DDeor.
1.1, DMort.30.1.
MAKING JESUS DUMB BEFORE THE SLAUGHTER FULFILLED
Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted
a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,
and a reed in his right
hand: and they bowed the knee before him,
and mocked him, saying,
Hail, King of the Jews!
Matthew 27:28 And
they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet
robe.
Matthew 27:31 And
after that they had mocked him, they took
the robe off from him,
and put his
own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify
him.
Empaizō
, fut. to be deluded II. sport
in or on, “hōs
nebros
khloerais
e.
leimakos
hēdonais”
E.Ba. 866
(lyr.); tois
khoroisin
e.
to sport in the dance, Ar.Th.975;
“tō
gumnasiō”
Luc.Lex.5.
-Prospaizô , 2. abs., sport,
jest, 3. laugh at, make fun or sport of, sing
to the gods, sing in their praise or
honour, 2. banter, tous rhêtoras
2 Peter 3 Marks of the End
Time Mockers
2 Peter 3:2 That ye may
be mindful of
the words which were spoken before by the holy
prophets,
and of the
commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and
Saviour:
That is the CURRICULUM for DISCIPLES
who attend the School of the Word and
not pagan ceremonial legalism
2 Peter 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first,
that there shall
come in the last days scoffers,
walking after
their own lusts,
LEADER OF THE CHORUS
-Aristoph. Thes.[947] Let
us now devote ourselves to the sports which the
women are accustomed to celebrate here, when
time has again brought round the mighty Mysteries
of the great goddesses, the sacred days
which Pauson himself honours by fasting and would wish
feast to succeed feast, that he might keep them all holy.
Spring forward with a light step, whirling
in mazy circles; let your hands interlace, let
the eager and rapid dancers sway to the music and
glance on every side as they move. -
Great Goddesses:
Paizo dance, play a game, 4.
play on a musical instrument, h.Ap.206:
c. acc., Pan ho kalamo phthongapaizôn [played on a reed]Ar.Ra.230
; dance and sing, Pi.
O.1.16.5. play amorously, prosallêlous X.Smp.9.2
; metatinosLXX
Ge.26.8 ; of mares, Arist.HA572a30.
-Orgia sacrifices to Aphrodite
A.secret rites, secret worship, practised by
the initiated, of the Cabeiri and Demeter Achaia, most
freq. of the rites of Dionysus, Cogn erdō,
rhezō,
cf. ergon,
orgeōn.）
Kukleo whirl round and round,
encompass [959] Chorus Let the
chorus sing likewise and praise the Olympian gods
in their pious transport. It's wrong to suppose that,
because I am a woman and in this temple, I am going to speak
ill of men; [966] but since we want something fresh, we
are going through the rhythmic
steps of the round dance for the first time. Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted
a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,
and a reed in his right hand: and
they bowed the knee before him,
and mocked him, saying, Hail,
King of the Jews!
THE PROPHECY OF MOCKING JESUS:
Jeremiah 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted
thee,
hath pronounced
evil against thee,
for the evil of
the house of Israel and of the house of Judah,
which they have done
against themselves to provoke me to anger
in offering
incense unto Baal.
Jeremiah 11:18 And the LORD hath given me knowledge
of it, and I know it:
then thou
shewedst me their doings.
Jeremiah 11:19 But I was like
a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter;
and I knew
not that they had devised devices
against me, saying,
Let us destroy the tree with
the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land
of the living,
that his name
may be no more remembered.
Those who get a vision to MOCK JESUS in
fulfillment of prophecy ALSO rush to remove CHRIST
from their public confession.
-mansŭesco , I. Act., to tame,
to make tame B. Trop., to
render mild, gentle, or peaceable:
“nam me jam ab orationibus dijungo fere, referoque ad mansuetiores Musas,”
Cic. Fam.
1, 9, 23: “ira,” Ov. Tr. 3,
6, 23.—
dēlūbrum , i, n.
de-luo, the place of expiation, cella [holy place as
a house only for a god]“noctu
audita
ex
delubro
vox
est,
etc.,”
Liv. 29, 18:
“so
coupled
with
templa,”
id. 30, 20:
wickedly, profanely illūdo to play
at or with any thing, to sport with,
amuse one's self with (syn. colludo; cf.
ludificor). 1. To make sport or game
of, to jest, mock, or jeer at,
to ridicule (class.).
1. To scoff or mock at, to
make a laughing-stock of, to
ridicule ipsa
praecepta
(rhetorum),”
Cic. de Or. 1, 19, 87:
“voces
Neronis,
quoties
caneret,”
Tac. A. 14, 52:
verbis virtutem superbis, Verg. A. 9, 634.—
Mūsa , ae, f., = Mousa,
I.a muse, one of the goddesses
of poetry, music,
“Musarum
delubra,”
Cic. Arch. 11, 27:
“hic
Musarum
parens
domusque
Pieria,
Mela,
2, 3, 2: crassiore
Musā,
A. A song, a poem: “musa
procax,”
Hor. C. 2, 1, 37
koma A. deep
sleep, “autō
. . malakon
peri
kōma
kalupsa”
Il.14.359;
“ē
me
. . malakon
peri
kōm'
ekalupsen”
Od.18.201;
“kakon
de
he
kōma
kaluptei”
Hes.Th.798;
“hupnou
k.”
Theoc.Ep.3.6:
metaph., of the effect of music, Pi.P.1.12.
2. Medic., lethargic state, coma, “kōma
sunekhes,
oukh
hupnōdes”
Hp.Epid.3.6
Dumb means the inability
to MEDITATE on what is going on.
cōgĭto
The command is to SPEAK the Word and MEDITATE in
the heart: not to make music. Cogitation in a
rational sense can be stopped by (d).
With de: “cogitavit
etiam
de
Homeri
carminibus
abolendis,”
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he
opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to
the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers
is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isa 53:7
Oppressed is from the
Hebrew:
Nagas (h5065) naw-gas'; a prim. root; to
drive (an animal, a workman, a debtor, an army); by
impl. to tax, harass, tyrannize: - distress, driver, exact (-or),
oppress (-or), * raiser
of taxes, taskmaster.
The burden Jesus died to
remove was:
Phortizo (h5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to
load up (prop. as aa vessel or animal), i.e. (fig.)
to overburden with
ceremony (or spiritual anxiety): - lade, be heavy laden.
Phoros (h5411) for'-os; from 5342; a load
(as borne,) i.e. (fig.) a tax (prop. an individ. assessment on persons or property; whereas 5056 is usually a gen.
toll on goods or travel): - tribute.
pherō pherō
2. carry away as booty
or prize, enara, teukhea,
Il.6.480,
17.70; “ aiga
leonte
ph.” 13.199; deipnon
ph., of Harpies, A.Eu.51;
“ enekhura
bia
ph.” Antipho 6.11;
in the phrase pherein
kai
agein
(cf. “ agō”
1.3), IG12.69.19; pheronta
ē
agonta
Lex ap. D.23.60; “ ai
ka
. . agē
ē
pherē”
Leg.Gort.5.37; “ hērpazon
kai
epheron”
Lys.20.17;
“keirōn ē
pherōn”
IG12(9).90.10
(Tamynae, iv B. C.); “ ai
tis
ka
. . pherei
ti
tōn
en
ta
hiara
ga”
Tab.Heracl.1.128;
of a divorced wife, “ ai
de
ti allo
pheroi
tō
andros,
pente
statērans
katastasei
kōti
ka
pherē
auton”
Leg.Gort.3.2; pherein alone, rob,
plunder, “theōn hiera” E.Hec.804;
“ allēlous”
Th.1.7;
abs., SIG38.23
(Teos, v B. C.):—Pass., “ pheromenoi
Bakkhōn
hupo”
E.Ba.759:—Med.
in same sense, “ enara”
Il.22.245;
“ pelekeas
oikonde
ph.” 23.856; “ aterpea
daita”
Od.10.124,
cf. 15.378.
ena^ra , ōn, ta, ( enairō)
A.arms
and trappings of a slain foe, spoils, “ pherein e. brotoenta” Il.6.480;
“ pheromai” 8.534;
poll' e. Trōōn taken from
them, 13.268;
so “ e. brotoenta Dolōnos” 10.570:
generally, spoil, booty, tēn [ phormigga] “ aret' ex enarōn” 9.188,
cf. 6.68,
Hes.Sc.
367.--Ep. word (used by S.Aj.177
(lyr.)) for Trag. skula, laphura.
phorm-igx ,
iggos, hē,
A.lyre,
freq. in Hom.,
esp. as the instrument of Apollo, “ phormiggos perikalleos hēn ekh' Apollōn” Il.1.603,
cf. 24.63,
Od.17.270,
Hes.Sc.203;
of Achilles, “ phrena terpomenon phormiggi ligeiē kalē daidaleē” Il.9.186;
with seven strings (after Terpander's time), heptaktupos, heptaglōssos, Pi.P.2.71,
N.5.24;
“ antipsallōn elephantodeton ph.” Ar.Av.219
(anap.).
2. ph. akhordos, metaph.
for a bow
the Demon son of Zeus like HERMES was
the god of thieves and liars.
keirō , fut. Theoc.14.46;
v. khrōs
1.2,
egkuti;
shear sheep, “ makhairai
kourides,
hais
keiromen
ta
probata
kai
tous
poimenas”
3. metaph., ' fleece', plunder, “ tēn
mammēn”
Herod.3.39.
2. ravage a country, esp. by
cutting down crops and fruit-trees, “ to
pedion”
Hdt.5.63;
“ temenos”
Id.6.75,
cf. OGI765.10
(Priene); “ tēn
gēn”
Hdt.6.99,
Th. 1.64;
“ khōran”
Aen.Tact.15.9;
destroy, “ polin”
Call.Fr.1.60 P.;
also, clear, of pioneers, “ oros”
Hdt.7.131:—Pass.,
of a country, to be ravaged, “karēnai” Id.4.127,
cf.
3. ekeire
polukerōn
phonon slaughtered
many a horned beast by hewing,
S.Aj.55.
1. tear, eat greedily, of beasts, keirei
t'
eiselthōn
bathu
lēion
onos]
Il.11.560;
of fish, “ dēmon
. . epinephridion
keirontes”
21.204;
of vultures, “ hēpar
ekeiron”
Od.11.578,
cf. Luc.DDeor.
1.1, DMort.30.1.
MAKING JESUS DUMB BEFORE THE SLAUGHTER FULFILLED
Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted
a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,
and a reed in his right
hand: and they bowed the knee before him,
and mocked him, saying,
Hail, King of the Jews!
Matthew 27:28 And
they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet
robe.
Matthew 27:31 And
after that they had mocked him, they took
the robe off from him,
and put his
own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify
him.
Empaizō
, fut. to be deluded II. sport
in or on, “hōs
nebros
khloerais
e.
leimakos
hēdonais”
E.Ba. 866
(lyr.); tois
khoroisin
e.
to sport in the dance, Ar.Th.975;
“tō
gumnasiō”
Luc.Lex.5.
-Prospaizô , 2. abs., sport,
jest, 3. laugh at, make fun or sport of, sing
to the gods, sing in their praise or
honour, 2. banter, tous rhêtoras
2
Peter 3 Marks of the End Time Mockers
2 Peter 3:2 That ye may
be mindful of
the words which were spoken before by the holy
prophets,
and of the
commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and
Saviour:
That is the CURRICULUM for DISCIPLES
who attend the School of the Word and
not pagan ceremonial legalism
2 Peter 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first,
that there shall
come in the last days scoffers,
walking after
their own lusts,
LEADER OF THE CHORUS
-Aristoph. Thes.[947] Let
us now devote ourselves to the sports which the
women are accustomed to celebrate here, when
time has again brought round the mighty Mysteries
of the great goddesses, the sacred days
which Pauson himself honours by fasting and would wish
feast to succeed feast, that he might keep them all holy.
Spring forward with a light step, whirling
in mazy circles; let your hands interlace, let
the eager and rapid dancers sway to the music and
glance on every side as they move. -
Great Goddesses:
Paizo dance, play a game, 4.
play on a musical instrument, h.Ap.206:
c. acc., Pan ho kalamo phthongapaizôn [played on a reed]Ar.Ra.230
; dance and sing, Pi.
O.1.16.5. play amorously, prosallêlous X.Smp.9.2
; metatinosLXX
Ge.26.8 ; of mares, Arist.HA572a30.
-Orgia sacrifices to Aphrodite
A.secret rites, secret worship, practised by
the initiated, of the Cabeiri and Demeter Achaia, most
freq. of the rites of Dionysus, Cogn erdō,
rhezō,
cf. ergon,
orgeōn.）
Kukleo whirl round and round,
encompass [959] Chorus Let the
chorus sing likewise and praise the Olympian gods
in their pious transport. It's wrong to suppose that,
because I am a woman and in this temple, I am going to speak
ill of men; [966] but since we want something fresh, we
are going through the rhythmic
steps of the round dance for the first time. Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted
a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,
and a reed in his right hand: and
they bowed the knee before him,
and mocked him, saying, Hail,
King of the Jews!
|
Donnie Cruz Letter
to the Madison
Donnie.Cruz.The.Trinity.Debunked.html
Questions or comments
for Donnie Cruz
Earl.Lavender.Christian.Spiritual.Formation
Once-Christian
Universities discovered a New Hermeneutic (Means just
translation) which, as prophesied, repudiates God the Father,
the God the Son.
Through Jesus,
God Himself spoke to His people during
His lifetime.
Now God speaks through the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit will teach you all things,
will call to your
memory the things Jesus said,
will guide you
into all truth,
will speak what He
hears from the Father,
will tell you
what is yet to come,
and glorify Christ
as He reveals Christ to you
THAT BLASPHEMES
JESUS CHRIST WHO FORMED HIS OWN KINGDOM AND LEFT HIS OWN "LAST
WILL AND TESTIMONY." HE DIED TO PUT THAT WILL INTO EFFECT AND
ORDAINED APOSTLES TO PUBLISH THAT WILL. ONLY A VERY
PROFANE PERSON WOULD ALTER THE WILL EVEN OF AN EVIL PERSON.
Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me
in heaven and in earth.
Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name [singular] of the Father, and
of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt. 28:20 Teaching them to OBSERVE all things whatsoever I
HAVE COMMANDED YOU:
and, lo, I am with you
alway, even unto the end of the WORLD. Amen.
JESUS DEFINED HOLY SCRIPTURE AS THE
PROPHETS AND OTHER PROPHECIES CONCERNING ME.
Luke 11:49 Therefore also said
the wisdom [SPIRIT] of
God,
I will send them prophets
and apostles,
and some of them they
shall slay and persecute:
Eph. 2:20 And are built upon [Educated in the ekklesia]
the foundation of the
apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ
himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons
of men,
as it is now revealed
unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets;
and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers;
2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the WORDS
which were spoken before
by the HOLY PROPHETS,
and of the commandment
of us the APOSTLES of the Lord and Saviour:
Jesus was sent into
the world to seek and save a small band of LOST SPIRITS: they
are sons FROM GOD. SPIRIT is a parable of figurative to, as
Jesus said "God HIDES from the Wise or Sophists who are those
who SPEAK their own word proving them to be Sons of the Devil.
He also HIDES from the singers, instrument players, actors or
PAY TO PLAY.
The Spirit OF Christ is not another God. God puts His Spirit
or Mind into WORDS required for humanoids--including
theologians--go hear God.
John 6:63 It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth;
the flesh profiteth
nothing:
the WORDS that I SPIRIT unto you, they are SPIRIT,
and they are life.
Spiritual Formation was forced by Wives of PROFESSORS who
could intimidate feeble men to claim that they were really GOD
standing in their Holy Places. The SPIRIT is from God,
is not subject to MECHANICAL and merchandised ANTICS of Sillen
Women .
Their BOAST is blaspheming God and Jesus and literally claim
that NEITHER were able to forsee CONTINGENCIES of THEIR sudden
new age:
Isa. 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid:
have not I told thee from
that time,
and have declared it? ye
are even my witnesses.
Is there a God beside me?
yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Earl Lavender etal calls God a liar: they
claim that the MAN Jesus was a God and the SPIRIT or BREATH of
God is another God.
Is. 44:9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity;
and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their
own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
Is. 44:10 Who hath FORMED a god, or molten a graven
image
that is profitable for
nothing? [A labyrinth is such an image of
Divination]
Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation,
and took upon him the FORM of a servant,
and was made in the
likeness of men
Spiritual Formation FOR SALE AT A HIGH
price never intends to form ministers who are SERVANTS
of others
2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of THIS world
hath blinded the
minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the
glorious gospel of Christ,
who is the image of God,
should shine unto them.
Col. 1:15 Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the
firstborn of every creature:
Eph. 4:23 And be RENEWED in
the SPIIRT of your mind;
Col. 3:10 And have put on the new man,
which is RENEWED
in knowledge after the IMAGE of him that created
him:
SPIRITUAL
FORMATION INCLUDES DIVINATION BY MEANS OF THE LABYRINTH AND
YOUR OWN WORK
The Image
of Divination at Lipscomb:
helix “hai kinēseis
kai helikes
tou ouranou”
Arist.Metaph.998a5;
4. coil
of a serpent, E.HF399(lyr.)
when you trill the lyre
Elelizô --2.
Med. and Pass., move in coils or spires, of
a SERPENT, “tēn
d'
elelixamenos
pterugos
laben”
Il.2.316;
ep'
autou
(sc. telamōnos）“ elelikto
drakōn”
11.39, cf.
A.R.4.143;
“speiras
opheōn
elelizomenē”
Ar.Fr. 500. Rev 13
1) Christian Mysticism
Contemplative spirituality has taken the church by storm. This issue is nolonger relegated to the fringe elements of Christianity. No denomination
is immune to its effects, despite the fact that it is the legacy of Roman
Catholic monks who merged Eastern spirituality with Christianity. We will
consider several of the most prominent practices of this “Christian”
mysticism, such as contemplative prayer, the prayer labyrinth, yoga, lectio
Sun Goddesses were frequently psychopompes, and the LABYRINTH
was itself connected to the Sun. It's entrance was carefully
faced East to catch the first sunlight of the day. Patricia
Monaghan's research has also shown that the LABYRINTH
accurately charts the Sun's path in the sky in the far North.
Travelling the LABYRINTH made rebirth possible,
whether if be by the Goddess leading the dead from its
centre beneath the ground, or the priestess Ariadne
guiding initiates through it for a spiritual rebirth.
Winding up the thread originally recreated the globe of the
Sun, rebirthing the Sun Goddess herself. The ubiquitous pools
near LABYRINTH or Cretan Goddess temples were
probably meant to act as mirrors. The Sun's reflection was used
for divination, rather than the endless circling of the fish.
multĭ-plex , ĭcis, adj.
multus-* plica (multīplex, Lucr. 2, 163;
4, 208; n.
plur. multiplica, Gell. 19, 7, 16),
I.that has many folds (class.).
II. Transf. A. That has many windings
or concealed places: “vitis serpens
multiplici
lapsu et erratico,”
Cic. Sen. 15, 52:
“domus,”
the LABYRINTH, Ov. M. 8, 158.—B.
In implied comparisons, manifold, many times as great, far
more: “id efficiebat
multiplex
gaudium
rei,”
Liv. 7, 8, 1: “multiplex
caedes
utrimque
facta traditur
ab aliis,”
i. e. far greater than I state it, id. 22, 7, 3: “praeda,”
id. 2, 64, 4.—
la^burinth-os
[u^,
ho,
A.
LABYRINTH or MAZE, a large building
consisting of numerous halls connected by intricate and
tortuous passages: in Egypt, Hdt.2.148,
cf. Str.17.1.37;
in Crete, Call.Del.311,
D.S.1.61:
pl., “spēlaia
kai
en
autois
oikodomētoi
laburinthoi”
Str.8.6.2;
name of a building at Rome, IG14.1093;
also at Miletus, Milet.7.56,
Supp.Epigr.4.446
(iii/ii B. C., pl.).
nōn
not by any means: Dissumulation,
secret, synonyms: pretense,
dissembling, deceit,
dishonesty,
duplicity,
lying,
guile,
verba
conclusa:
adservari
nōn not by any means
multĭ-plex
A. That has many WINDINGS
or concealed places: “vitis
serpens
multiplici
lapsu
et
erratico,” Cic. Sen. 15, 52:
“domus,”
the LABYRINTH, Ov. M. 8, 158.— I.f
ull of turns or windings, tortuous, “potestates
verborum,
[craftiness, powers]
ŭba
, at tuba terribili sonitu taratantara
dixit, Opposite a
SINGLE blow.
b. Sonorous,
Tibicines epic poetry,
Mart. 8.3, 22; 8, 56, 4; Mart.
10.64 c. A lofty style of speaking,
pla^n-aō
,
2. lead from the subject, in talking, D.19.335.
II. Pass., wander, stray, “
b. c.acc.loci, planētheis
tēnde barbaron khthona
having wandered over it, E.Hel.598
; “pasan gēn”
Plu.Luc.34:
c.acc. cogn., pollous
heligmous
planōmenoi
wandering about as in a LABYRINTH,
X.Cyr.1.3.4.
Prepared
for the members of the Madison Church of Christ
By
ConcemedMembers
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/sundayschoolinexilecom/what-happened-at-madison-this-week-the-timeline-pa-t221.html
Lipscomb University Radical Trinity with
Holy Spirit required to make Father-Son Intelligible
Lipscomb University The Holy Spirit OF God
is not the Head of the Church Replacing Jesus christ
WHAT HAPPENED AT THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST?
So
you, son of man. I have made you a watchman for the house of
Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn
them for me.
Ezekiel
33:7
1ST EDITION
INDEX
PREFACE
BACKGROUND MATERIAL
SADDLEBACK-THEPURPOSE DRIVEN
CHURCH
NIGHTMARE...............................................................................3
THE CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE FACILITATES THE
COMMUNITY CHURCH TAKEOVER OF
THE CHURCHES OF
CHRIST............................................................................................................................21
THE COMMUNITY
CHURCH......................................................................................................................................23
THE PEOPLE'S CHURCH-A WAYWARD
VESSEL....................................................................................................25
WILLOW CREEK....HEGELIAN
DIALECTIC AND THE NEW WORLD
ORDER........................................................28
TIMELINE- WHAT HAPPENED THIS
WEEK AT MADISON CHURCH OF
CHRIST?....................................................29
DEACONS BEG FOR ANSWERS &
THE ELDERS
RESPOND.....................................................................................34
CONCERNED MEMBERS LETTER TO
CONGREGATION...........................................................................................39
THE FINAL REPORT AND VOTE
TOTALS....................................................................................................................41
COMMENTS WRITTEN ON THE
VOTING
BALLOTS....................................................................................................48
WHO IS LARRY SULLIVAN &
THE STRAUSS
INSTITUTE?.........................................................................................50
TRANSCRIPT OF BEN JONES’
REMARKS & CLOSING
PRAYER...............................................................................51
TRANSCRIPT OF TOM HADDON’S
CLASS - HOW TO TRANSITION THE MADISON CONGREGATION TOWARD
SADDLEBACK AND HOLY
ENTERTAINMENT..............................................................................................................54
INTERVIEW WITH GARY McDADE OF
THE GETWELL CHURCH OF
CHRIST..........................................................61
BOB JOHNSON ON “THE COVENANT
OF
MEMBERSHIP”..........................................................................................66
DAVID LIPSCOMB ON CHURCH
AUTHORITY..............................................................................................................68
A STUDY OF THE MADISON CHURCH
OF CHRIST ELDERS & THEIR
ACTIONS.....................................................69
TO THE ELDERS OF 683 CHURCHES
OF CHRIST IN THE CHANNEL 5 VIEWING
AREA........................................71
ORDER
FORM................................................................................................................................................................72
Read
updated editions at: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/thebook
Thank
you to all the people that helped us. A special thanks to
Kenneth Sublett at www.pineycom.com
*DISCLAIMER*
Articles from outside sources have not been edited, we made no
attempt to correct spelling or grammar. All articles
reproduced by permission of their owners.
l
ick'k'k'kickick'k'k'klckick
PREFACE
What Happened At
the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken
over across America.
This book is only about one of those
churches. It's about the Madison Church of Christ. By studying
the methods used here along with the resource references you
might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you
will recognize the signs early on. Many of the current
members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what
happened. Some never will know! This book is for them as
well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60-year-old
church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the
US, and the largest Church of Christ. It thrived for many
years on the vision of its elders and those of it's ministers.
Those visions undoubtedly came from the inspired word of
Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was
a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the
Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm. They used
secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to
change the format and direction of the Madison Church of
Christ. The Elders knew that the membership would never
approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community
Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,
planters, seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so the members never noticed it until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that
old members were going to be driven off so new techniques
could be used to go out and reach the un-churched through new
"Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by
the "Community Church Movement.” Old members had to be
kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or
the funds would not be there to pay for the new building.
So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew
or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had
always been “as approved by God.” Ten of the last fifteen
elders would begin to shed some doubt on that. The Elders did
not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of
the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001.
Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand what's
happening here, you must read the background materials in the
first of the book. This is only the first edition, and not the
end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast
of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly
confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what
the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying
everywhere, too many to count)
***************
SADDLEBACK-
THE PURPOSE-DRIVEN CHURCH NIGHTMARE!
"everything is
done so that the people really won’t understand what is
happening"
"Right, the other
thing they do, is that they will split the service and they
will have a traditional service for the elderly people who
don’t want to go into these changes and then they will
have a second, more contemporary service for the youth"
Comments
added to beginning by Despatch Editor...W. B. Howard
Extract from Despatch Magazine Vol. 13:2
[June 2001] Entire magazine online
If our readers absorb no more than this
article from the whole of the June Despatch, then they would
have done well!
We urge you to take especial note of the
following material, as it contains info. Which is almost
unbelievable! When we listened to the audio tapes from which
we have gathered the material herein, I had a strong
realization that we were listening to a description of
the Antichrist system seeking to obliterate from the earth
Biblical Christianity and the true Gospel of the Lord
Jesus Christ! This is something so innovative and efficient
that one is immediately enlightened to the fact that
brilliant brains have planned all this out, and that really no
group of men could be so blasted clever! Behind this
planning an ancient, evil conductor holds the baton to which
tune these people are playing. What am I getting keyed up
about here? RICK WARREN and the “Purpose-Driven
Church” programs for church
expansion!!! Also heavily interacting is BILL HYBELS and his church expansion programs. We will give
our readers the following transcript, straight from the
audios of RADIO LIBERTY, USA, with Dr Stanley Monteith
interviewing Robert Klenck, tapes entitled, “Marketing
Christianity” One and Two.
A business consultant, who has been working
with the international bankers, has designed the
Purpose-Driven Church programs. Robert Klenck reveals a
sinister involvement with the Rockefellers. The robbing of the
Gospel of such matters as awareness of sin, need to
repent and become righteous in God’s enabling, the sacrifice
of Christ’s Blood for remission of sin, separation from
the evil world etc is what makes the “success” of the
Purpose-Driven Church program possible. Therefore we
Bible Christians are encountering a highly effective way of
defeating Christianity by means of enticing churches to
seek numbers, power, money (from tithes and donations etc),
and very large buildings. The enticement includes the
dialectic approach which makes “Christians” value “meeting the
needs” of an ungodly society, instead of standing firm on
the truths of God’s Word and obeying His commands - and
knowingly preaching unpopular messages which lead to
spiritual repentance. The “success” in the world’s eyes can be
very great by giving way to these business programs, the
masses are flocking to be in churches which bring a popular
message, give them rock music, lovely buildings and
accommodating, pleasant, worldly- wise preachers. These
programs are here in Australia, believers. Already in the
USA some 150,000 pastors have been trained up in these
awesomely powerful brainwashing programs. The most
alarming matter presented by Robert Klenck is the revealing of
the PROFILING and DATA BASING of congregations for the
political powers of the New World Order. Also the COVENANTS
which people sign which bind them to the Purpose-Driven
Church programs - they will refuse to turn against these
Change-Agents because the naive congregations feel they
will be denying Christ Jesus if they do so!
Dean
Gotcher is mentioned in this
transcript we have a video of this available taken from the
NTSC format to our PAL version. ($10 including postage and
handling within Aust.)
Email: iardeanqotcher@vahoo.com
<mailto:iardeanqotcher@vahoo.com> For enquiries of Dean Gotcher himself.
Our
Alpha Expose material relates both
to this transcript and Dean Gotcher ... another brain washing
technique. Material available from our site, use the online
search engine or write to us for details.
[Segments have
been removed that were unimportant to the subject i.e.
extraneous chatter.]
TRANSCRIPTION
OF AUDIO TAPE - JUNE. 2001.
SIDE ONE
OF TAPE NUMBER 1.
DR.
STANLEY MONTEITH WITH ROBERT KLENCK.
title MARKETING CHRISTIANITY.
INTRODUCTION
BY DR. MONTEITH -
his background as an orthopedic surgeon. Dr
Monteith introduces Dr. Robert Klenck.
topic: “SELLING CHRISTIANITY.
There is a conscious, organized effort to
change the message and the music of the Christian Church - to
make it more acceptable to the world. Well, I always thought
Christianity was supposed to transform the world, but of
course if you look you can see what’s happening today and
you look at the statistics on divorce in the church - well, it
is just as much in the church as it is outside the church
- maybe even more. As far as abortion, as far as so many other
things that go on, there is not much difference between
the church and society as a whole.
Is that what God intended? I thought that
Christianity was supposed to transform individuals and not
make them more like the world. One thing that happened, and I
think increasingly I hear this from across the country, is
that the music of the church has changed and instead of
the great hymns of Christendom now we have a rock band and a
loud beat because of course, it will appeal to the young
people. We justify that because we want to get the young
people into the church and that of course we talk about
things like sin. Oh we don’t want to tell people they are
sinners. After all that’s going to make them feel bad
about themselves and hurt their self-esteem.
In fact, apparently Robert Schuller, who is
a very, very successful minister, has said “You know, you
would never want to tell them they were a sinner”, and so we
no longer talk about hell or damnation or the fact that we
really need a Savior - we make ourselves feel good about
ourselves and that is going to get us into church. But is it
going to change our lives? Is it going to transform
society?
Well, we are going to be talking about
this. Dr. Klenck has done a lot of work, a lot of study on
this and he is one of the most articulate spokesmen on this
most important of the subjects.
Bob, (Dr. Klenck,) I thank you for being
with us this evening.
(For the benefit of transcription, Dr. Monteith will be
identified as D.M. and Dr. Klenck as B.K.)
B.K.: You are very welcome.
D.M.: Bob has worked with us, his wife
Tammy has been working with us but she is not going to be with
us tonight. She is into a lot of other very, very important
issues. But why don’t you tell our listeners how you got
involved in this. Why have you put the time and study
into this and of course, what you found so you just go ahead
and just start telling us why you have began to study
this so called “Church Growth Movement” that is to make
Christianity more palatable to people and bring them into
the church.
B.K.: Back in 1993 is when the Lord drew us
to Him and we became saved and then shortly after that we were
in a small Baptist Church and this was in 1994. We were
baptised there and then the pastor started to bring some
changes into the church. He brought in material from
Pastor Rick Warren apparently he had gone to some conferences
with Pastor Warren and was really touting his material,
touting his (Rick Warren’s) whole programme and implementing
all of it in a very rapid fashion at the church. He (the
pastor) was telling us stories about how the little small
church was going to grow to huge numbers and also was
boosting me into leadership. He wanted me to be, sort of, his
right hand man and be close to him from the ground floor
and twenty years from now we would be able to look back and
look on this huge ministry and say that we had been
there, you know, right from the beginning all along.
But quite a few changes started to happen
in the church. The music was changing - was part of it, bigger
changes that he was doing, he took the pews out of the
sanctuary and replaced those with chairs. They restructured,
what they called ‘discipleship’ and they started to put
us on tracks to leadership - we had to go through courses and
they implemented ‘101’, ‘201 ’ and ‘301 ’ courses that
they wanted everybody in the church to be involved with the
courses and they would do assessments at the end, tests
and tests and assessments of us, also required that people
sign covenants in order to move on to the next level
which of course in the Scripture we are commanded not to sign
any covenants because it says that let our yes be yes and
our nay be nay any more than this comes of evil.
D.M.: Alright, now of course did you notice
that they were sort of changing the structure of the service,
in other words -and the minister, instead of coming in a coat
and tie was coming in more casual dress and people certainly
were encouraged, at least indirectly, to be casual in their
approach to the services?
B.K.: Yes, that is a very big part of it as
well, is the right to not be intimidating to so called
‘seekers’ - unchurched people - churched and unchurched people
trying to bring in more unchurched and again trying to make it
so that it was more of a ‘comfortable’ - more of an
entertaining type of service.
They started to bring in more drama -
actually, even the day that we were baptised - the pastor
dramatised the point -actually chained himself to the pulpit -
he was chained to the pulpit during the entire service. It
wasn’t until somebody actually brought the key - it was ‘Jesus
Christ' and unlocked him from the ‘bondage’ of his chains -
things like that.
D.M.: What you are getting was more of
entertainment rather than relying upon the Christian message.
Entertainment -things that would hold people’s attention, a
drama, a video, a television and things of that sort. Is that
what they were sort of getting into?
B.K.: Right.
D.M.: What about dance and other things of
that sort?
B.K.: Well we weren’t there all that long,
so we saw a lot of these being implemented and then we left
because - the main reason we left was 2 reasons:
(1) That he was going away from deep
Scriptural teaching - much more superficial messages. He would
give a hand out which had a few ‘fill in blanks' and basically
once you fill in the four blanks which were on handout,
that meant the sermon was over.
D.M.: But of course now, wasn’t this really
trying to get people into church - wasn't the motivation
behind it certainly a good one, in other words, that if we can
get people into church, why then of course, we can get them
the Gospel after that.
B.K.: Ostensibly, that’s what is stated.
D.M.: Of course, weren’t a lot of the
courses - what happened in these courses - that you had to
take ‘101, ‘201 ’ and ‘301’?
(D.M. states on the tape that these course
numbers are ‘101’, ‘102’ and ‘103, where in B.K.’s
introduction they are different - have altered the
transcription to agree with B.K. J.S.). Did that take you into
the Gospel itself?
B.K.: Some of it did. Some of it was around
the Gospel, but then it was more geared, especially in the
‘301’ course towards ‘spiritual gifts assessments’ where they
are actually doing psychological profiles on the people in
the congregation and finding out where your strengths and
where your weaknesses are and then trying to motivate you
to use your areas of strength in ministry. So at the -
the nicest way to say it, I guess, was that it was fitting
people to the task which was o.k. However, the more
sinister side of it is that they are actually doing
personality profiling on people and data basing people
and sharing this information with other agencies.
D.M.: Other agencies - within the church,
of course?
B.K.: Well no, Governmental agencies.
D.M.: Wait a minute now, why would the
church share anything with the government agency?
B.K.: Well, in order to first maintain
501C3 tax exempt status and we are seeing this more and more
as the church is being partnered with the government so called
‘faith based’ organisations in order to dole out social
programmes for the U.S. government. Both political
parties have been involved with that, currently President Bush
is pushing hard for this.
D.M.: Jesse Jackson, of course has been
using that scam for a long time. He did very, very well. In
fact, his mistress was very happy because he was paying for
her salary and her accommodations out of the money he had
apparently, most of it coming from Government grants to
his multiple ministries. But be that as it may. Of course,
does something like this work? In other words, does it
have an impact on people beginning to come to the church more
and more? Did the church begin to grow?
B.K.: It did begin to grow but I would not
call it good growth. The youth group was the biggest amount of
growth and the kids that were involved were pretty rebellious
youth and were not really being challenged in the youth groups
to live Godly lives.
D.M.: But of course, they were coming to
church, weren’t they and at least hearing something about
Jesus Christ? Or were they just sort of coming to church
because it was entertaining?
B.K.: For the most part, it was
entertaining and they did youth trips and did ice-skating and
various areas that they would pay for with the church’s funds
that was certainly a drawing card. Very little with respect to
exposure to the Gospel, again really the command to lead
Godly lives and I remember even one episode where one of the
fathers in the church took his 16 year old daughter down
to have a tattoo for her sixteenth birthday. And that was sort
of common type of things we saw going on there.
D.M.: But of course, the children were
entertained and it at least got them out of the streets. Did
they sort of justify that at least they were not just hanging
around in gangs; at least they were coming to church? Was that
the type of rationale for what was going on?
B.K.: Right! That was a lot of the
rationale - which was a very pragmatic approach but
unfortunately, again, as Christians, we are supposed to be in
the world but not of the world and we are supposed to be again
salt and light to the world. We are supposed to be
different and these kids were not being told to hold up that
standard and not being pushed or convicted at all of
their activity to change and to live Godly lives.
D.M.: Of course, you left the church - do
you know what has happened to it since you have left - has it
grown since then or is it still pretty much like it was?
B.K.: It has grown, and then actually the
pastor recently has left to become a church planter. I think
he has gone to Ohio or somewhere to begin planting churches.
D.M.: All right, now of course you have had
to find another church and did you eventually find a church
where you felt comfortable?
B.K.: We did for a while, found for about 5
years and clearly the teaching there is much more - well it is
through the Bible and that is what we were really pushing the
pastor to do. We had, in the church where we got saved we had
been
............expositionally and
unfortunately that small church folded and that is why we went
to the second church. But
we had a thirst for expositional teaching.
D.M.: By expositional teaching - what, just
the Word of God?
B.K.: By verse and then along, and then
going in depth to what other verses would correspond with
other areas of the Bible that would correspond with the verse
that we would go through.
D.M.: But of course, you were adhering to
this concept that the Bible is the Word of God, the infallible
Word of God and you wanted to get into that rather than
perhaps the entertainment and the other sort of ‘good feeling’
part that comes with - is this what you call a ‘seeker
friendly’ church?
B.K.: Yes.
[
A BRAINWASHING PROGRAM SWEEPS CHURCHESI]
D.M.: So then what happened? You have left
this church and you find another church. What motivated you to
begin studying the ‘seeker friendly' movement at Willow Creek
and Saddle Back and all of this movement, which really
is sweeping Christendom today?
B.K.: Correct. Right, we left first because
we were being manipulated and pushed into leadership which we
did not feel we were being led into by the Holy Spirit but in
this 101, 201, 301 programme you needed to do it and there was
very much pressure involved in it and we felt that we
were not led by the Spirit.
Secondly, right, the lack of teaching of
the Word of God so we really wanted to get into learning the
Word of God and because we believe in the sufficiency of the
Word - we believe that the Holy Spirit will lead us into
ministry and if He sees fit and you don’t need this man
made programme to do that. And a few years later, about 2-1/2
years later, we heard a man speak - Mr. Dean Gotcher.
D.M.: Dean is a good friend of ours and why
don't you tell our listeners what Dean said that impacted on
you?
B.K.: Right, well he taught us about his
study which is about the Hegelian Dialectic and what the
Hegelian Dialectic is -most simply stated as - a synthesising
of two opposites and so in a ‘seeker friendly' church what you
would see, is believers admixed with unbelievers and they
would synthesise - that is coming to consensus where truth
becomes somewhat in the middle and so basically what
happens is the believer ends up moved very slightly away from
his original position of moral absolute - the seeker or
the unbeliever is moved slightly more towards faith and the
people who are doing this movement think that is good
enough and eventually they will come to faith through this
process. But the thing that ends up sacrificed really is
the truth of the Word of God, when it is proclaimed and when
it is stated it is a fact and it is not questioned then
some people, even when Jesus spoke, He talked about some
believed, some scratched their heads and other ones
turned away. That was the way that He always taught. He always
taught it factually and it would either convict people or
it would not convict people. It was never watered down or
softened which was what the result is in this type of
situation.
D.M.: Don't you think that people,
ministers, who have taken this -1 firmly believe that they
love the Lord, I think that they really want to be effective
and want to be champions of the Word but isn't this more sold
in a pattern that it is a technique that you hope will
bring people to the Lord just by their association and coming
to church and even if they are there, they will gradually
begin moving towards Christianity. Not necessarily knowing the
Word, not necessarily studying the Word, but it will sort
of just come about.
B.K.: Exactly, exactly. So he spoke about
this process and he stated that the church growth movement is
based upon this process and so that’s what struck me, I said,
well this somehow - this process was being used in this church
that
we came out of -1 don’t know how, but
somehow this ties in and that is what sparked my interest to
investigate what was the roots of this whole idea - who were
the foundational thinkers behind it, what where they thinking
and what was their final goal? That is what has spurred
by study.
D.M.: So, what have you found as you begin
looking into it and I know you have done a great deal of work
and I appreciate so much the material you sent me. Why don’t
you just talk to the people in the audience because most
of them are really unaware of the fact that this is a
major movement that is sweeping Christendom today - it is
based upon teaching you how to succeed sort of like Dale
Carnegie or many of the motivational psychology
programmed introduced into corporations and the business
world. How to be more successful, how to accomplish what
the corporation wants to accomplish. That is at least
what they sell you in the business world.
Why don't you go into the background of
what you have uncovered and how this is being, as it were,
sold to so many good people, and many of the good people, I am
convinced, really do love the Lord but they seem to put
success before the Scriptures, as it were.
B.K.: Yes, absolutely. You have described
it well because it is the exact same framework and type of s
philosophy that the total quality management in the work place
is based on that the motivational speakers and self-esteem
speakers pronounce. They really stress measurable results
so they look at measurable results as far as baptisms, number
of people in the church, that is the reason they put the
chairs in stead of the pews because they can count
their membership each Sunday and see as to whether or not
they are getting more people in the church.
They obviously study tithing patterns, in
fact, one of the consultant groups called the Leadership
Network even have several resources as to how to maximize the
amount of tithings.
D.M.: Wait on a minute, I thought the Holy
Spirit, or our Lord was supposed to motivate us to give. In
other words, we are to give, you know, what we felt motivated
to give but we are being manipulated to give to the church?
B.K.: Oh yes, absolutely, there is a book
'44 Ways to Maximize - increase giving - in your church. There
is many ... by George Barnard (sic) and other materials by
John Maxwell all about maximizing the tithe and actually
studying different ways getting an offering, getting a
pledge, getting a pledge and an offering - they study all
types of ways to again to maximize that because that is
one of the measurable results.
D.M.: Now, how would you go about getting
people to tithe?
B.K.: One of the things in these churches,
if it is a smaller church and a consultant comes they will
recommend that you build a fellowship hall first because if
you build a fellowship hall first, then you can appeal to your
congregation that we need funds to get a sanctuary and
people - that really tugs at the heart strings stronger if you
build the sanctuary first. Then it is much more difficult
to get people to either pledge more money to get a fellowship
hall because they feel that a fellowship hall is more of
a ‘frill’ whereas a sanctuary is a necessity so they actually
plan that on purpose.
D.M.: In other words, this is basically
some sort of a business management concept.
[A UNITY OF NAMES.]
B.K.: Very much a business management
concept - one of the major foundational thinkers - is one of
the major thinkers in business management and that is Mr.
Peter Drucker (sic). Peter Drucker, he is one of the three
main people who helped in building Rick Warren’s
Saddleback Church, he is also involved with Willow Creek,
which is Bill Hybel's Church in Illinois. Saddleback
Church is in ... California. Those are the two major sister
churches, I would say, and they both actually are based
on thinking from Robert Schuller and they admit they gathered
information from him on how to start their churches up.
And so Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral - they all
began their churches by taking community surveys -
surveying the community in what they wanted to get out of a
church and then tailoring their church around those
community needs and wants.
Rick Warren even admits that he was polling
the people in his community that if the person said they were
either actively attending the church or were a believer, then
he stopped asking any more questions because he didn't want
to colour the survey with those opinions. So he wanted to
tailor his church only to the needs of lost sinners.
D.M.: O.K. Well that's good though - so if
you want to get the lost sinners into the church, don’t we?
B.K.: Right, although the church is
supposed to be for the perfecting of the saints, for the
building up and edifying of the saints rather than for meeting
the needs of the unbelievers and it is all even based on
Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of needs which are basically
the three lusts described in the Bible - the lust of the eyes,
the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Those are
the basic hierarchy of needs though you are then tailoring
your church after those types of needs.
D.M.: But of course, you do want to get the
lost people into the church, don’t you? In other words, or
perhaps do you want the Lord to motivate them to come or the
Holy Spirit to cause them to want to seek for the Word and the
truth?
B.K.: Again it is all a human management
style as opposed to something that is led by the Holy Spirit
whereas, right, the typical thing would be that your church
would be a body of believers and you would invite somebody who
was an unbeliever and you would invite them on a
individual basis and you would be moved by the Holy Spirit to
preach to them and tell them the Word and invite them to
church and they would come in. But they would be coming in to
the church, which is tailored around the feeding of the
Word as the most important thing. In fact, we are even taught
that the pastor who labours in the Word is worthy of
double honour because dealing with the Word is so important.
So that would be the environment that
somebody would come into as opposed to an environment where
the message is going to be minimized and softened so as to
make it so that it is unoffensive [sic].
D.M.: All right now, of course this Peter
Drucker that you speak of, a management consultant and he
works with big corporations, major business corporations.
B.K.: His management school is over here at
Claremont Graduate University would be only about 10 miles
away from us, actually says that his management style is
humanistic and that he believes that it is a human enterprise
and the humanist manifesto is the absolute opposite or
antithesis of Christianity. They deny creation, they embrace
evolution, they assert that religion is only involved -
interactions between man and his environment, in other words,
that man basically made is up of his own thinking. They
deny the supernatural and they basically - their whole goal is
a utopia on earth which is everybody getting along,
everybody having freewill to do everything that they want to
which includes free abortion rights, freedom to have
euthanasia, free sexuality and basically creating a utopian
earth in the absence of God. That is the humanist agenda
and that is actually the foundational thinker that Peter
Drucker is.
D.M.: But then of course if you wanted to
apply these concepts - not the humanist concept is such that
you describe but this technique towards expanding the church.
Why would he do that? You would not think that a humanist, if
he is indeed simply a humanist, would not be that
interested in helping the church.
B.K.: Well again what he is helping the
church do is that he is actually helping the church fit into
this utopian goal. So he believes that the church can be an
agent by which this end is accomplished, and he says
specifically that organisations - he says to consider all
the problems facing the world - look at world poverty, look at
social inequalities and all of the bad things that
happen. He says then managed solutions - is imperative that
managed solutions be used in order to achieve these types
of goals.
D.M.: Sort of like faith-based partnership
- the government uses the church to reach its goal of
government taking care of people, but of course the church
fits into that.
END OF
SIDE 1 OF TAPE 1.
START OF
SIDE 2 OF TAPE 1.
D.M.: Bob, you were beginning to tell us
about Peter Drucker, a humanist, apparently, who believes in
basic humanist concepts who decided that he wanted to help the
church to be more effective in meeting society’s needs, so
let’s pick up the story from there.
B.K.: I was able to dig up his quote, and
his quote is that the non-profit sector is where management
today is most needed, where systematic principle, theory-based
management can yield the greatest results fastest. Just think
of the enormous problems facing the world - poverty,
health care, education, international tension, and the need
for managed solutions becomes loud and clear. So again he
believes he can solve all of these world problems through
managed solutions - and he never mentions Christ. He does
claim to be a Christian. He claims to be an Episcopalian
Christian and actually even in Christianity Today it says
if you examine his writings that his writings say little other
than that about his faith, in other words, he is tends to
keep his ‘light’ under a bushel.
Clearly there is another quote that he has
also, where he talks about the social universe. He says that
the social universe has no natural laws and it is thus subject
to continual change and he says then that what is thought to
be factual today can then become misleading and actually
completely confusing to you in no time at all. So he says as
far as the social universe is concerned, as far as moral
absolutes are concerned that there are no hard and fast rules
-there are no moral absolutes. Those are hardly the words of a
Christian man.
D.M.: No they certainly are not. In fact,
that is increasingly the way the world is going - there is no
right, there is no wrong, there is simply shades of gray as it
were. And of course Christendom stands on the fact that there
are absolutes, there is a right and a wrong because there
is a God who has laid out His rules for mankind. But we seem
to be getting away from that increasingly today and we
make excuses for the criminal. We seem to be much
more concerned about animal abuse than we are about
taking the life of unborn children in the womb. A gentleman
was recently sent to prison for 9 months because he had
mistreated cats and I disapprove of mistreating animals
but nothing is ever said about tearing living human
beings and parting them from the womb. So there is something
wrong about the way that society is going and you would
think the church would of course be leading efforts to bring
these things up and yet of course, many times the silence
of the church is deafening.
[PETER
DRUCKER AND WILLOW CREEK AND SADDLEBACK CHURCH ]
So why don’t you pick up the idea now - how
did Peter Drucker get associated with Willow Creek and
Saddleback Churches? And Is there a relationship?
B.K.: I don’t know just how he got
affiliated with them in the first place, although again both
of them acknowledge that he was with them in their formal
stages and helping to influence them with respect to beginning
their churches. In fact, Rick Warren, he said that three
people who supported his church - he said Tom Patterson was
one of the strongest supports along with Peter Drucker
and Bob Buford (sic) of our purpose-driven church strategy in
the formative years of Saddleback - so that is a quote
from Warren. He said he was there right from the start.
D.M.: Buford - that name is familiar -
where does he come in? Who is he?
B.K.: Right, he is a gentleman; he is
actually the first president of the Drucker Foundation for Non
Profit Management. He is the owner of Buford Television in
Texas and he is a large businessman, an entrepreneur and he
also wrote a book called “Half Time”. In that book he
actually refers to Peter Drucker as the man who formed my mind
and he says that in his office he has two main books - he
has a Bible and he has Peter Drucker’s book. He uses his Bible
for spiritual things and he uses Drucker’s book for
worldly things - which my Bible says we are supposed to use
the Bible for all of our affairs.
D.M.: I certainly would not want to argue
with you there. Of course, then this idea has really caught
hold. My understanding is that there are really tens of
thousands of churches that have taken on this concept and of
course it has really done - in sort of a stealth matter -
they don’t really tell the congregation what they are going to
do, they just sort of do it and one day the minister
arrives without a coat - still got a tie and a white shirt on
and then before long, maybe a month or two, he doesn’t
even have a tie on and then it is really done very subtly.
Don’t they change the music very subtly -
everything is done so that the people really won’t understand
what is happening.
B.K.: Right, the other thing they do, is
that they will split the service and they will have a
traditional service for the
elderly people who don't want to go into
these changes and then they will have a second, more
contemporary service for the youth. So the pastor, in between
services will take off his coat and tie and dress more
casually for the second service. So there is a separation
of the elderly people in the church and eventually they will
either scatter or die off and then they can go to the
contemporary service for everybody.
D.M.: All right, so we have seen this sort
of thing happen. Is there a different message that’s preached
between the two services? In other words, there is one that is
parallel to the traditional message where sinners are saved by
grace or is it sort of beginning to move into the same
more - say - acceptable. I was going to say more ‘watered
down'. Say acceptable to society type of service, are
both services pretty much the same - one traditional and one
is more acceptable.
[ GET RID OF BIBLICAL CHRISTIANS TO GAIN
NUMBERS.]
B.K.: I believe that one remains more
traditional. You have to realize that a lot of the elderly and
more traditional people in the church are also a lot of the
larger tithers to the church and so they don’t want to change
things too dramatically as far as those people are
concerned because they can lose a lot of their financial base.
Although in some of the books - there is another book
recommended by Rick Warren called “Transitioning - Leading
Your Church Through Change” and that is written by Dan
Southerland and in that book he talks about how his church
went from 500 people when he implemented his programme
that it dropped to 250 and now he has gone back up to about
3000 and that if he was to do it again, he would trade
the 250 people for the church of 3000 in a New York minute. So
he could not care less if he divided the church and got
rid of the traditionally minded people because once he has
this more acceptable gospel, this more acceptable gospel
is also - it has a broad appeal.
D.M.: Of course, what about people in the
churches -1 mean Robert Schuller who I think is probably the
prototype of this. He has 4,000 usually in the Crystal
Cathedral or 5,000 and two or three thousand outside. I had a
friend of mind there who went to see it when they had
Gorbachev there and he compared Gorbachev, the murderer of
Afghanistan and he compared him with Abraham Lincoln and
really praised this brutal man who should be up on more
war-crimes trials for aggressive war.
When he was the premier when they were
dropping bombs there in Afghanistan, which were shaped like
toys, the little kids would pick them up and blow off their
arms and legs, a war of attrition and terror carried out
against the Afghan people when Michael Gorbachev was the
president of or the dictator of Russia. It is the only reason
they got out, it was not because of any altruism at all,
they lost so many helicopters because we had given these
surface-to-air missiles to the Afghans and they could
shoot down the helicopter gun ships that were coming in and
machine-gunning the civilians. Now that is why they got
out but I mean when Robert Schuller invites Michael Gorbachev
and compares him to Abraham Lincoln and yet the people
were just going along with that. People were standing on their
feet and applauding wildly when Gorbachev was introduced
to the people.
Certainly Robert Schuller’s message appeals
to people across the world and it is not one of sin and
redemption - he certainly never talks about sin or that we are
sinners saved by grace.
[HEGELIAN
DIALECTIC - DEAN GOTCHER.]
B.K.: Yes, that is exactly right and this
is the seduction that is happening in the church. This
‘softened’ message, which does not convict of sin and most of
these pastors teach very little about sin. They even change
the name of it - they either call it ‘wrong doing’ or
‘bad choices’ or ‘poor choices’, ‘mistakes’ - they also very
much minimise the idea of a literal burning hell. So this
softened message puts the church to sleep and then the church
no longer is able to discern and what this whole Hegelian
Dialectic - and that is what Dean Gotcher was teaching us was
that repeating this process over and over again - with
just a very subtle and slight watering down of it each time
gradually puts you to sleep and again the Bible talks
about people having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
They are no longer able to discern at all.
So you bring in Michael Gorbachev into the
church and people are cheering wildly. Here is a quote from
Michael - “I am
not ashamed to say anywhere in public that
I am a communist and believe in the socialist idea. I will die
believing this and will pass into the next world believing
this.” That's what he says and yet Schuller, when he was there
last October 15th says “I know that he calls
himself an atheist, but 11 years ago was one of the most
powerful man in the world God used this atheist in a
mighty way.” He was talking about how Michael had allowed
Schuller's programme to be broadcast widely within the
Soviet Union.
[
GORBECHEV AND ROBERT SCHULLER ]
The reason that Gorbachev allowed this to
go into the Soviet Union is that he knew Communism has nothing
to fear from the message that Robert Schuller has to preach.
D.M.: Well of course, the thing is if
people are not convicted, they are not going to change. If
Christianity is simply a ‘do-good’ religion, and a ‘feel good’
about yourself and feel good about other people and want to
help other people, that of course is the philosophy - not
of the Gospel according to Mark, but according to ‘Marks’.
B.K.: Right, that is a good point. The way
that Gorbachev fits into all of this and this whole direction
that this is heading to is that Gorbachev has his “State Of
The World Forum” - my wife was actually able to attend that
with a friend Joan Veon last September back at the United
Nations Headquarters.
D.M.: What did she run into Joan Paris and
Jeannie Solomon (sic) who were there?
B.K.: Yes, she did.
D.M.: They were representing us at Liberty
here so you were in good company then.
B.K.: Yes, absolutely. In a small circle of
good company and a large circle of bad company.
[
EVIL NEW WORLD ORDER MEN!]
D.M.: Some of the most evil men in the
world were there at the World Summit Meeting which was held
from September 2nd to I guess 8th or 10th
- something like that. The world leaders, the financial and
corporate leaders of the world were there along with Ted
Turner and certainly Maurice Strong -1 don’t know whether he
is a member of the State of the World Forum but he
certainly was there working behind the scenes. He was a
speaker, if I am not mistaken. Anyway, basically,
Gorbachev is really one of the major players in this whole
world spiritual movement because there are
strong spiritual under-pinnings of what he says but the
spiritualism he is talking about is certainly not the
spiritual belief in Jesus Christ, but certainly strong
ties into the occult.
[
ROCKEFELLER BROTHERS ]
B.K.: Right, and that is exactly where this
all ties in, actually Stephen Rockefeller along with Gorbachev
is another one of the authors of the Earth Charter and also
the Rockefeller Brothers Fund funded a symposium organised by
the Peter F. Drucker Foundation For Non-Profit Profit
Management called The Emerging Partnership - New Ways in a
New World. So Drucker - this is all about non-profit
management and so it is all about getting the non-profits on
board towards the New World Order. Gorbachev ties in,
Schuller ties in, Drucker ties in - it ties it all in with the
leadership networks and who Bob Buford founded the
leadership network which is one of the largest
church-consulting firms that helps to push this church
growth type of movement into the churches. Drucker again
formed Bob Buford’s mind - he was there in the formative
stages of Rick Warren’s church - you know the picture is all
beginning to ‘gel’.
D.M.: Of course we see Gorbachev, as you
say, Stephen Rockefeller and Maurice Strong all joining hands
together to write The Earth Charter, the plan for the New
World with the commandments that will replace the 10
Commandments of old.
B.K.: Yes, and the Hegelian Dialectic is
the means of getting - this is actually a form of brain
washing and so you just get people doing this process, doing
this small group face-to-face interactions where everybody
says what they think and what they feel and then at the
end everybody reaches a consensus.
D.M.: Now is this what these breakout
groups - 101, 201, 301 - are small group/consensus groups?
B.K.: Those are leadership-training groups
but then they do require part of the covenants you do have to
sign in the covenant signing as you go through is that you do
sign a covenant to be committed to purchase a paid-in small
groups. And the small groups are facilitated meetings by
trained facilitators and they water down the Word of God.
D.M.: Now, why would you have to sign a
covenant? I mean, I would think that this is a voluntary thing
- you go to church, you go to church because you want to -
because you believe in it, but once you sign something - you
know - it takes things down the line occur, things you
don't agree with, but you have already signed an agreement for
things you don't even understand what you are signing
into or the implications as to where this is all leading.
Isn't this sort of like taking a Masonic oath for things
you don’t even know what Masonry is all about?
B.K.: Right! Actually, some of the diagrams
that they use for the 101, 201 and 301 are actually concentric
circles where you start out on the outside and start working
your way in which is the structure of many of the secret
societies. Like an onionskin where you keep going one
layer deeper and deeper into the skin and closer to the core.
Absolutely - and that is one of the things
that is much like a cult because the people then feel this
great constraint that they cannot leave and so they feel
locked in. I have talked with people on the phone about this
all the time and they say - ‘But I signed’. I say ‘what
are you going to do now - knowing what you know - you have to
either please the Lord or you have to go along with the
covenant which you signed that you know is not pleasing to the
Lord. He will forgive you for signing that covenant and
your breaking it if you are breaking it for all the right
reasons.’
D.M.: Well of course this is exactly what
happens when they get into Masonry. They are afraid to get out
- they have sworn these oaths, all their friends are involved
- you know, it is part of their way of life. Suddenly, to have
to break with Masonry, you know, means you are breaking
with the things that make life so pleasant. Of course, you may
come under tremendous pressure if you do leave.
B.K.: Yes, this is the exact same type of
thing and however, again they use the psychological argument
against you that now you are denying Christ if you are denying
us and you are turning your back on Him and so that is
a tremendous psychological force that is being used.
D.M.: Now do all the churches require you
to sign the covenant? Or is it just certain ones or is this
just a standard approach that is being implemented all across
the world today? All across America today, I should say.
[150,000 PASTORS TRAINED IN
“PURPOSE-DRIVEN” PROGRAMMES - USA!]
B.K.: It is a very standard approach. We
have heard of church after church that is doing this thing an
they bring us their diagrams of their leadership programmes
which are either the concentric circles or the other one is
that it is a baseball diamond - the four stages of the
process -101 through to 401 - all bases of a baseball diamond.
And so we see a pattern repeated over and
over again. Pastor Warren has trained over 150,000 pastors and
church leaders in this church growth principle.
D.M.: 150,000? 150,000?
B.K. Yes. And he has also sold more than a
million copies of The Purpose Driven Church’ book.
D.M.: Well, that is a lot of people. Now,
how many churches do you think there are in America today that
have gotten into this altered form of Christianity? Because it
really is a sort of a watered-down Christianity as a form of
Christianity -uses a lot of the words of Christianity but of
course as far as sin, damnation and the need for a Saviour,
that is not the major thrust of the message, is it?
[CATHOLICS AND JEWS ARE BEING
TRAINED ALSO.]
B.K.: Well that is correct, and actually,
the organisational management - the style they are using for
discipleship is
actually crossing not only denominations
but is actually crossing faiths so it is seen in Catholicism,
we see it in Jewish synagogues, we see it in other faiths as
well. So it is obviously not a movement of the Holy Spirit if
churches are not moved by the Holy Spirit at all or are
completely contrary, for instance, the Jewish synagogue where
people are not accepting Christ as their Lord and
Saviour.
Clearly this is not a movement of the Holy
Spirit but a man made organisational technique and again what
the endplay will be is eventually it will be to where you can
unify with people of other faiths and in order for this
greater goal of world peace in the utopian society. It
will water down Christianity where Christianity is no longer
salt and light but is actually acceptable to the Muslin,
acceptable to the Jew, acceptable to the Mormon; acceptable to
all of these faiths, which are not - again - which are
not true faith.
D.M.: I do see that this is part of the
great apostasy. Are you concerned that this might be part of
the great apostasy that is described in the latter days?
B.K.: Absolutely. I believe that it is. It
is very wide spread.
D.M.: Do we have any idea? You said over
150,000 or 160,000 people trained - how many churches have
gone this way?
B.K.: Huge numbers. I mean huge, huge
numbers.
D.M.: You are talking about tens of
thousands.
B.K.: Absolutely.
SIDE ONE
OF TAPE NUMBER TWO.
D.M.: We are told Dr. Klenck, that this is
going to change society. They are going to take back society
for Jesus Christ. Is it working, is it succeeding - is there
any place where this is changing our communities in society,
making people better, making people more god-like?
B.K.: Well, again a lot of this appears
good, for instance like one of the groups that is often tied
with many of these churches is ‘Habitat for Humanity’ and the
goal is very admirable if you take a needy family and help
them to build a home and get them into it. The problem
with it is that, in on the local level, people think they are
doing a wonderful thing. However, 10% of the money goes
to the international group ‘Habitat for Humanity
International' and they were actually present at the
‘Habitat 2’ Conference at the United Nations back in Istanbul
and so it also is something that is -again it is one of the
goals of the United Nations which is ‘Shelter Equity’ and what
they mean is they want to see everybody world-wide to
have a home.
Now that’s fine, for us Americans it may
mean actually putting other people into our homes in order to
spread the wealth world-wide and of course we know that the
U.N. agenda is all basically global socialism and they want
to completely, even the United States - even lower our
standard of living and make it even with a global standard of
living.
Habitat for Humanity is a ecumenical
organisation, they give the home without regard to the
people’s faith and they don’t necessarily allow or encourage
proselytising so it is again a deception on a local level and
people from the local churches are - you know they have a
heart for the Lord and they want to help and serve but they
don't realise the bigger agenda that they are also
funding, which is basically funding the demise of Christianity
while they are doing it.
(Section of Radio Talk-back deleted.)
D.M.: Fine. Thank you so much. That is one
of our supporters back in Louisiana. The question - are we
going to have to go underground - or is the Pope Catholic? Of
course the Pope is Catholic and of course the church is going
to come under persecution here in America. In fact I am
told that the Christians in China pray for persecution of the
American Church to try to once again re-kindle that
spirit of Christianity that they live under in China which has
brought, they
estimate, to 80 million people close to the
Lord.
They have a lot more Christians in China -
real Christians - than we have here in America. We have an
awful lot of ‘watered down’ people who go to church but not
who are really willing to give their lives for the Lord. I
wonder how many of you in the listening audience tonight
would be willing to give your life for the Lord tonight?
The question that Roy raised is you know,
are we going to have to go underground one day and are we
going to have to begin to prepare for that right now?
B.K.: Well, we are in home church, and
there are more and more people who are doing that. We have
hymnbooks and we sing hymns. We don’t have anybody talented
with musical instruments at this point, so we just sing and
just have a expositional - that is chapter by chapter,
verse by verse and we just go through the Bible and pray for
the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth and it is a real
blessing. It is just a small group and we are not concerned
about numbers and we don’t have any tithings. We don't
worry about motivations that way.
Until they stop allowing us to gather
together, then we will go underground if we are not allowed to
gather together. It is one of the most frustrating things for
me because as I evangelise people and they come to faith, then
where do you send them? And that is one of the biggest
problems I have with these big evangelistic crusades like the
Billy Graham or Greg Wories (sic) crusades is that they
often send these people right off to Saddleback Church, they
send them off
to all types of churches that are teaching
all kinds of ......doctrines and all kinds of watered-down
messages and so
you get them in and then you send them off
to the wolves - and I have a real problem with that.
So I try to show them that the only thing
that they can rely upon reliably is the Word of God and
unfortunately, I think with the big mega-churches, so many of
these pastors are on such pedestals that the people just look
to them for everything and then even as I speak out about
what these people are up to, a lot of them do not want to hear
it because it is knocking the person that they have put
on a pedestal is being knocked off that pedestal. We
shouldn’t have anybody on a pedestal to start with.
D.M.: Amen to that. Well I agree with you
totally. In fact before we found the church where we are going
now, we had actually going for Bible studies down to a
friend's house and then of course brought in some tapes from a
very, very good minister, going through the Bible - verse
by verse as you suggest. We are blessed in that the church is
very, very small, but at least it is teaching the
Scriptures and we are singing the psalms. I never thought I
would enjoy singing the songs -1 never thought I would
enjoy going to church for an hour and a half service and even
end up by going to Sunday School before that but do you
think there is a growing hunger for the Word of God and the
realisation of what we are up against does tend to draw
you closer to the Lord. I think if you can find a church like
that you are very fortunate.
B.K.: And as many organisations as are
exposed and have ties to the United Nations and you know -
there are huge, huge numbers - the Southern Baptist Convention
and again, Habitat for Humanity, which I have mentioned. So
many of these big organisations have these ties that are
really sinister so our tithing goes to very small ministries.
Ministries that we know the person, personally, and they
are doing it and the money is actually going to the Lord's
work and so it is not these huge organisations like Focus
on the Family and those that are tied in with all these others
who have negative ties. We are still able to just around
our local area give to needy people and help people out, help
friends out.
You know there are many, many ways to spend
your money for the Lord but it doesn’t have to go to a 501C3
organization necessarily.
DM.: And I just want to comment that in
recent years, the Southern Baptist Association has really come
under good leadership and that is why you hear these Texas
Baptists have moved away from it and they are constantly
being attacked.
They must be doing something right if they
are being attacked by so many of the ‘liberals' today. So, we
will just have to wait and see how that pans out. But I do
believe that there are some really good people in positions of
leadership in the Southern Baptist Association for the
first time in many, many years.
u know you have been very outspoken
bringing out this consensus, the Hegelian Technique that is
really gotten into the church today to make it more acceptable
- sell it like you would a bar of soap or something of that
sort. We want a Christianity that is saleable, of course,
it doesn't seem that we are brought alive by the Holy Spirit;
we are relying upon man’s approach to spread
Christianity. Would you agree with that?
B.K.: I would agree with that and although
again so many of the pastors become seduced by this because
the church consultant comes in and recommends that - well,
we’ve got these techniques we know are successful because
they are successful in the world, why not market
Christianity and get a broad appeal and you will do things for
the Lord.
You will get a large number of people in
and you know, the more people that are saved, the better and
which they don’t disagree with. But what they don’t understand
that with that whole package, is the foundational thinkers
behind it are driven by Satan and his end point is the
destruction of the church. That’s what we need to be aware of,
that this is not just a matter of being smart and using
techniques that the world says are o.k. because these
techniques are rooted in evil.
The Lord tells us in Matthew Chapter 7 or
17,1 think it is Matthew Chapter 7 that an evil root cannot
bear good fruit and the roots of this are Satanic and we
cannot have any part of it. It is leaven and any little bit of
this in the church will destroy the church.
D.M.: Well, I share your concern. This is
why I asked you to come on. You have been doing this for a
long time. Have you come under any criticism or attack for
doing, speaking out against this very successful marketing
technique.
B.K.: Not dramatic, I mean clearly,
whenever I speak it is controversial, especially when pastors
who are mentioned who people think are godly men and you know,
and are supporting their (the pastors) ministries and all
these other aid organisations. For me to criticise them,
they think that is just absolutely terrible.
Some of their typical responses is that we
are ‘dividing the flock’ or that we are ‘causing dissention
within the church’ or that we are ‘dividing the Body of
Christ’, and so on. Others have said, one thing that is
interesting because I have had a few letters from pastors
who have gotten excerpts of letters from pastors in responses
from them and interestingly they never challenge my
facts.
They state that either I have twisted the
facts so that the people who have made the statements that I
have turned their words around so that to make them say
something that they don’t really believe in or that I have
gone in with a preconceived conclusion and then only
added in those facts and only dug up those facts which support
my preconceived conclusion. When quite on a contrary, the
statements that I quote are very representative of the works.
In other words, when I quote Rick Warren
and he says that pastors he thinks are the most under-rated
groups of change agents today and all of his writings are
about change technology and again this Hegelian Dialectic -
this continual change. You know, for me to make that
statement it is very representative of the rest of the work
that he does.
D.M.: Of course, this idea of being a
‘change agent’ - in other words, this is an individual who has
got to alter the perception of the people who follow them.
B.K.: Right. And the idea of a change agent
is that they not only alter that person’s perception but they
alter the perception without the person realising that they
are being changed.
D.M.: What a cult leader does?
B.K.: Yes. Absolutely.
D.M.: But, I mean the thing that really
disturbs me is - and we will get back on this, is the fact
that it is done very deceptively. In other words, it happened
so slowly that most people didn’t even realise what was
happening. Little bit by little bit the music changed,
you know - wonderful praise songs that I think some of the
modern praise songs are really
wonderful and they really are praising. But
then of course, in comes the increasing tempo and the beat and
the changing of the beat itself. This begins to alter the
physiological reaction of the people to the point where pretty
soon the people are beginning to dance in the aisles of
the church and I am seeing this and thinking ‘what in heavens
name is going on?' But music can have almost a hypnotic
effect on individuals, can't it?
B.K.: Absolutely. One of the ingredients
that they use - the other thing that they use for deception in
order to deceive the people, they overwhelm the senses - many
of these churches have numerous video screens. Rick
Warren's actually has 5 video screens up at the front of
the sanctuary. They recommend that the pastor use a
mobile microphone and move around a lot, walk around a
lot and so what happens is again the senses are
being overwhelmed as one comes into this whole kind of a
circus atmosphere and so the discernment of the message is
very difficult to discern exactly what is being said. So
in the message the biggest thing is half-truths - in other
words, God is a God of love is spoken but God as a
righteous judge is not spoken.
Well, they can say that God is a God of
love and they can say ‘check that out in the Bible' - all of
that is true. But Peter Drucker himself says that the most
important thing in communication is to listen to what isn’t
being said. So he understands this technique and they use
it dramatically. They overwhelm the senses and they only teach
in half-truths. Even when we go to a court of law we are
sworn at the bench to tell the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth because you are not allowed to go
and speak the truth if it is half-truth. You are not allowed
to do that because you could manipulate a jury so the
legal system understands that concept.
The other thing that happens then - like
you said, the music tends to numb the senses and break down
the barriers to accepting the message and then many of the
messages are also subliminal. Lee Strobel (sic) spoke at the
Saddleback Church while I was there and he was talking
about world hunger and world problems.
END OF
SIDE ONE OF TAPE TWO.
START OF
SIDE TWO OF TAPE TWO.
D.M.: We were talking about the secret...
church movement. Bob, you were saying of course, you have been
accused of distorting the things of altering what they are
trying to do and a lot of men who are involved in this, I am
sure, love the Lord. I am sure that they are really
trying to do good. Of course they bought into a humanistic
approach to spreading Christianity and putting more faith
in a sales technique than in faith in the Holy Spirit. Would
say that might be the case?
B.K.: Yes, absolutely, and so at least
initially, I would say that they had the right motivation
although later on at some point they have to overcome
resistance to this and that’s - there is a point where these
pastors become accountable. For instance -1 will get back
to that statement from Lee Strobel - but for instance, many of
these church consulting firms charge between $20,000.
-$50,000 in order to bring this programme into the church. So
there is first a very large incentive on the pastor’s
part to implement the programme and for it to be a successful
programme.
There always is opposition to it. Once the
pastor goes to bring this programme in, there is always
opposition. In this book called Transitioning - leading your
church through change’ it has a whole chapter on dealing with
opposition, how to marginalise people and to minimise
them and to neutralise them.
D.M.: How do they go about doing that -
lets imagine that somebody objects to the music in the church
or somebody sees what is happening is concerned because they
are taking people away from the traditional message of the
church. How do you deal with these people?
B.K.: The first thing that you do is you
only bring the inner circle - you get the inner circle of the
church to buy into it and although they talk about the ‘power
brokers’ within the church, the people who have a lot of
influence, the people who have been a lot of times and
the big tithers. Getting those people on board, it says with
the power brokers, that same book, he says with the power
brokers you have three choices and that is basically (1)
convince them (2) fight them or (3) get rid of them and
so they recommend that you get them on board - that is the
recommendation. You try to get these power brokers on
board.
Then you get the Deacon Board on side and
you get the support of the Deacon Board and you convince them
that this whole programme is going to work and then and only
then do you start to implement it with respect to
the congregation. Because if you open it up to the
congregation right away then there will be opposition to it
and you might actually fail in your effort to change the
church. Where if you have already gotten the Deacon Board on
board, the Deacon Board will not vote the pastor out
because they have already bought into this idea and basically
you will cause splits in the church and the
traditionally-minded, bible-based people will be the ones that
leave the church. And then the church will be able to
move on to this whole idea of change.
D.M.: But what happens if the people don’t
want to leave and it is their church, they have been there and
invested a lot of their life and their money in the church and
they would be speaking out against what is going on.
B.K.: They will be marginalised. The
pastors will talk them down; they will even preach about it,
they will even preach about the people who are dissenters. We
have heard of pastors preaching bout blessed subtractions -
prayed people out of the church. We have heard a pastor
do that, that he actively prayed that certain people would
leave and so at some point, yes, the pastor starts out
with this noble cause of wanting to get a lot of people and do
a lot of great things for God. But at some point - there
is a point where they meet this opposition and then it raises
its ugly head and they start to do things, which are
unthinkable.
D.M.: They really do, actively then, try to
get people to leave the church.
R.K.: If the people are resistant to the
change. One thing is that you try - again, it is a very
manipulative technique and they have studied it dramatically.
They have studied and proven that if your 7 best friends are
in church you won't leave the church - it doesn’t matter
how bad the doctrine gets, so their whole goal is to nurture
these human relationships. Get people involved in social
ministries - they have got surfing ministries and bicycling
and bowling and bridge, crochet and everything to get you
with a circle of friends because you won’t leave because you
would break up those relationships. So human relationship
takes precedent over relationship with God, which is a
humanistic idea anyway.
D.M.: Then of course the minister will
preach against those who are speaking out against what is
happening?
B.K.: Absolutely. There is one sin in these
secret-sensitive churches and that is the sin of disunity. The
person who is trying to hold to the Biblical absolute that is
being accused of disunity. So eventually, what happens is that
the person who, like you said, this resistor, what
happens to this resistor who doesn’t want to leave the church,
ends up doing one of two things. Ends up leaving the
church or he ends up knuckling-under, caving-in or
compromising and being miserable there and falling into
the whole trap of the programme.
Now back to that quote by Strobel, the
manipulation in the message, for instance he was talking about
world hunger and he was saying that misguided nationalism is
the cause of world hunger. We have enough food world-wide and
we could solve the world-wide hunger problem, but it is
misguided nationalism that causes this. This is a subliminal
type of message that people walk away with saying ‘Oh
yeah, you know the U.S. really ought to give up its
sovereignty because sovereign nations are causing these
problems in the world. The reality is that is not the truth.
The truth is that it is corrupt governments that have
caused poverty. I mean we have sent huge planeloads and trucks
loads of aid to various impoverished nations and it has
ended up in the hands of the leaders who have either sold it
for their own gain or whatever. But it has not been
trickling down to the people that need it the most. It is
corrupt governments that have added to the worldwide
hunger problems and it doesn't have anything to do with
misguided nationalism or the fact that a nation such as
the U.S. wants to hang on to its sovereignty.
D.M.: I remember when we had the famine in
Somalia a few years ago and it wasn’t as though there was
plenty of food there, it was just that they had no means of
getting it distributed because of the political unrest and of
course Africa is one of the most lush productive
continents in the entire world. But of course it is because we
have financed corrupt dictators there and kept them in
power that the people are impoverished and constantly involved
in wars and many of them living in poverty.
So, people have to understand that - we
will give you one explanation, but it is very, very seldom the
right explanation for what is going on.
(Section of Radio Talk-back deleted.)
B.K.: Yes, there is a couple of points that
I wanted to make about that - one is that as far as
Scriptures, we have spoken of several people - talking about
working from within and trying to stay within and turn this
around and the people that we have met, none of them have
been able to do that. They have all actually caved in and gone
along with the programme. And that’s the idea that they
are staying there for the relationships and that ends up
taking precedence. So there is no Scripture with respect
to working within. It is always ‘come out from among them and
be ye separate’ - separate yourself from among them, the
people that are teaching false doctrine don’t sit underneath
them because it is dangerous to stay in there. It is a
danger that we must heed and a warning that we must heed.
Secondly, this idea that God is love.
Actually there was an invitation at that Gorbachev State of
the World Forum where it was titled “God is Love” and it had
six of the major world religions all around a globe and it
said “You are invited to join us in daily meditation”.
Well that god is love is a dialectic god.
He is a god of consensus of which all the world religions can
agree with. It’s the God of judgement and sin and damnation
and hell that does not go along with the flow of everybody
getting along and going along. So that is the dialectic
god and that everybody agrees with. The god of the Muslims is
a god of love, the god of the Hindu and Buddhism and
everybody is a god of love. But not all those gods send people
to a literal burning hell if they refuse to repent and
follow Him.
D.M.: Amen! The idea that Christianity is
the true and only religion is repulsive to all of the people
who hate Jesus Christ.
B.K.: It is negative and divisive - yes.
[FEW
WILL BATTLE SPIRITUALLY],
D.M.: Well, I think that we are involved in
truly a great and amazing battle and I feel privileged to at
least have a voice and I am so pleased that you are down there
in Southern California getting the message out. Are you making
any contacts from across the country? I know you have
been to several seminars that Dean Gotcher has put on as
the speaker there. Are you getting pretty good crowds out
to hear this message?
B.K.: Actually, they are sadly small. 25 to
50 people at the most. Right, we had one in Dallas, Texas, we
had one in Florida and we have one up coming in April in Ohio
and sadly no, this is not a message that people are flocking
to hear. It is not a secret-sensitive message I am
afraid. However, every speaking opportunity there is a small
number of people, I mean, and they are heart-broken and
they have been in it, they have known there is a problem and
they couldn’t put their finger on it - exactly where it
came from. I mean, they are in tears, they have joy that they
have finally realised what it is that they have been
battling against for a long period of time and now know the
answer to it and are coming out.
And so, it is not a popular message. There
is a remnant being separated for righteousness and even though
it has not a wide appeal, it is the few people that I do this
for.
D.M.: Well, I am just hoping that the
number will increase. After all, it is in the Lord’s hands and
we are to do our best to get the message out to tell people
the truth and that’s really the beauty of talk radio and of
course what we do and of course this will be circulated
across the country and we will make sure that some of these
tapes get out to our followers and we do have a fair
number of them. People can of course go to our web site and
get the archive programmes off the web site and get the
tapes.
I believe that rather than going to all the
effort to travel all around the country, from my point of
view, I am coming down to Southern California on Wednesday to
speak on Thursday but I firmly believe that being behind the
microphone - this is why I appreciate so much your coming
on to be on our programme Bob, because we are reaching many
hundreds, many thousands of people out there. They are
not calling in tonight but they are out there, they are
listening and I know that many of them are in total
agreement with what you are saying.
Many people have seen these things happen
in their church and did not understand what was happening. It
was sort of like Christian, I knew it was wrong - this new
music that was coming out but I couldn't put my finger on it
until I talked to Jack Wheaton (sic) red his books - it
was so obvious what was happening. Now I have talked to other
people -professional musicians who simply reinforced that
understanding - there is an organised effort to use music to
destroy Christendom.
B.K.: Yes, absolutely.
D.M.: We have a couple of minutes left.
What are your parting thoughts for our listeners tonight? And
you have a telephone number or web site or anything you would
like to get out?
B.K.: Gives out his home phone number.
6263396453 - E-mail - bobandpam@iol7.com
I would encourage if there is any material, quotations and
references that I can get out to people, I have video or audio
tapes that I can get out to people again to get the message
out.
From the web at: http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Mini/minidespatchJune302001.htm
QUOTE
*******************************************************************************************************
"Ah consensus _ the process of abandoning
all beliefs, principles, values and policies in search of
something in which no one believes, but to which no one
objects; the process of avoiding the very issues that have to
be solved, merely because you cannot get agreement on the
way ahead. What great cause would have been fought and won
under the banner 'I stand for consensus'?"
_ Margaret Thatcher
THE
CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE FACILITATES THE COMMUNITY CHURCH TAKEOVER
OF THE CHURCHES OF CHRIST
Gary McDade
"The
Community Church begins as a parasite feeding off a thriving
organism."
"Older,
established churches of Christ are funding the vehicle of
their demise when they support the Community Church."
WHAT IS THE CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE?
The Christian Chronicle is published by
Oklahoma Christian University. It is Edited by Bailey B.
McBride. Glover Shipp is the Senior Editor. It is published
monthly and has a worldwide readership.
WHAT IS THE COMMUNITY CHURCH?
Currently the best known expression of the
Community Church is the model of Bill Hybels out of
Barrington, Illinois, near Chicago called The Willow Creek
Community Church. However, a Baptist preacher named Rick
Warren while denying cloning Willow Creek has built The
Saddleback Community Church in Orange County, California,
which closely parallels Willow Creek, and has written a
more understandable guide for duplicating the Community
Church entitled The Purpose Driven Church.
These are denominational churches loosely
affiliated with the group from which they came which merely
have shrouded themselves with the name "Community Church." The
cardinal rule among them is to appear
non-traditional. They are characterized by a casual dress
code, "contemporary" music, non-distinctive public speeches
which endeavor to focus the attention of the assembly on
a celebration-type atmosphere, inter-denominational
acceptance, small group organization, personal
testimonies, praise teams, and in their inception stages a
brazen acceptance of financial support from churches they
intend to take over.
HOW DOES THE CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE FACILITATE
THE COMMUNITY CHURCH?
The Christian Chronicle, March 2000, speaks
in the most glowing and favorable terms of the Community
Church with only the exception of a very few scant references
to the contrary. Of the six articles on the subject only one
writer ventured to ask a few questions, and even he dared
not speak one word of criticism, just alarm while advising a
"wait and see" posture. Also, of the writers selected one
has helped plant a Community Church in Searcy, Arkansas,
another presented the view that "this change is our
historical commitment to nondenominational Christianity,"
another said he believes their purposes to be
"God-given," and yet another currently is the minister for a
Community Church in Amarillo, Texas. The three pages
devoted to the Community Church are clearly weighted in favor
of it. Additionally, the editor of the feature, Lindy S.
Adams, provided the Web site addresses for Willow Creek and
Saddleback, facilitating their use. Two of the writers
are professors at Harding University, one is adjunct
instructor for Harding Graduate School of Religion in
Memphis, one is president of Rochester College, two are
self-styled church growth experts, and, as mentioned
earlier, one is a minister for a Community Church. The
selection of people with connections to schools supported
by churches of Christ who will not oppose the Community Church
to write the articles facilitates the movement by lending
the impression of acceptability to the articles.
TELLTALE MISCONCEPTIONS OF THE EDITOR
The editor of the feature is laboring under
at least two misconceptions regarding the church of Christ.
One, in the
introduction Adams wrote,.. the church they
worked diligently to create____" Men did not create the church
of Christ;
it is of divine origin (Eph. 3:9-11, 4:1-5,
5:23-25). Without doubt this misconception is why such
liberties are being taken with regard to the church. The view
seems to be if men created the church of Christ and it is not
now what men want it to be, then just simply change it to
fit the wishes of men today. Two, denominational church growth
models can be adapted and altered to cause the churches
of Christ to grow. The church of Christ is not a denomination
(I Cor. 1:10, Eph. 4:4). The one responsible for its
growth is God himself (I Cor. 3:6-9). The method of its
expansion is the preaching and teaching of the word of
God (Mk. 16:15, Acts 6:7). The church growth expert who
teaches at Harding and has helped start Covenant
Fellowship Community Church wants the readers to believe these
Community Churches are "still within the ‘Church of
Christ mainstream.’" How can anyone expect that to be so when
they do not even so much as retain the name Church of
Christ? Their attempt at worship and congregational
organization is a departure from the truth, yet they
demand their followers to insist that they are center of the
strait and narrow road. A Christian may have no
fellowship with the unfruitful (I Cor. 1:10, Eph. 5:11). Their
means and methodologies have nothing to offer the Lord's
people. (I Thess. 5:5). Light and darkness have no communion
(II Cor. 6:14). Brethren need to wake out of sleep, get
back to teaching and preaching the word of God, and Christ
will give all the light needed to advance his cause (Eph.
5:14).
HOW TO DEFEAT THE TAKEOVER
In closing, four suggestions are offered on
how to defeat the takeover. One, by exposing the error of the
Community Church and those favorable to it. It is right to be
"set for the defense of the gospel" (Phil. 1:17). Paul
left Titus in Crete to set things in order, hold fast the
faithful word, exhort and convince the gainsayers, stop the
mouths of the gainsayers, and rebuke them sharply (Titus
1:5-13). Jude 3 still calls for an earnest contending for the
faith. Two, by refusing to fund the Community Church
movement by withdrawing personal and financial support from
those congregations and schools promoting the Community
Church. Philippians 1:5 and 4:15 proves that those whom
we support financially we are fellowshipping. If one is
contributing into a church treasury, he is in fellowship with
that which is supported out of that treasury. When the
leadership of a local congregation is dedicated to the
planting of Community Churches all of the members of that
congregation are responsible for the planting of the
Community Churches. By withdrawing personal and financial
support from that congregation the take over will be thwarted.
The Community Church begins as a parasite feeding off a
thriving organism. A paradoxical phenomenon is occurring
with the Community Church. Older, established churches of
Christ are funding the vehicle of their demise when
they support the Community Church. It is very sad to note
that if this continues, the children and grandchildren of
members of the churches of Christ will not know the truth
about the church of the Bible because the Community
Church advocates are changing everything about it under
the pretense of church growth.
Three, by evangelizing the lost (Matt.
28:19, 20). No matter what the problems and challenges faced
by the churches of Christ the gospel of Christ must continue
to be preached to a lost and dying world. Many problems
and challenges besieged the early church, yet the gospel
was advanced to the point that Paul could write in
Colossians 1:23 that every creature under heaven had the
opportunity to hear it. The method authorized by God to reach
lost souls is preaching (I Cor. 1:18-21). Imagine if The
Christian Chronicle were dedicated to such a noble purpose
instead of promoting the latest denominational craze. The
millions who could be taught the Bible through that paper who
are instead being coaxed into error make these
developments all the more a shame. Four, by edifying those who
are Christians (Eph. 4:15,16). Paul said that by edifying
"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the
sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in
wait to deceive" (Eph. 4:14). Through edification the
Christian dons the whole armour of God in which he stands
against the methods of the devil (Eph. 6:11).
THE
COMMUNITY CHURCH A Brief Overview
Gary
McDade
The Lord Jesus Christ established his
church on the first Pentecost after the resurrection 33 A.D.
in Jerusalem, Israel. The church of Christ was purchased with
the precious blood of the Son of God (Acts 20:28). As his
loving bride, the church wears his sacred name, the
church of Christ (Eph. 5:21-33; Rom. 16:16). Jesus Christ is
the head of this one bride, which is his body (Eph. 5:23;
1:21-23). And, "there is one body" (Eph. 4:4). In recent
times, men have arisen who are ashamed of the name of
Christ’s bride and body, "the church of Christ." One example
emerges from The Christian Chronicle where a deacon from
the former Southlake Church of Christ in Dallas, Texas stated
that changing the name to the Southlake Boulevard Church
and following a Baptist preacher by the name of Rick Warren
through his book, The Purpose-Driven Church, was
"removing a barrier to the community" (April, Vol. 57, No. 4).
Dozens of examples like this can be cited from the March
and April editions of The Christian Chronicle. The names
being substituted in the place of the scriptural name
"church of Christ" constitute a departure from heaven’s way.
Salvation is only in the name of Christ, "Neither is
there salvation in any other: for there is none other name
under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"
(Acts 4:12). Those who have become ashamed of Christ and his
sacred name will be condemned, for he said, "Whosoever
therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in
this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall
the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of
his Father with the holy angels" (Mk. 8:38).
In the place of heeding the great
commission (Matt. 28:18-20) by sowing the good seed of the
kingdom, which is the word of God (Lk. 8:11), and being
content and honored to be workers together with God (II Cor.
6:1) allowing him to give the increase (I Cor. 3:6),
these people are following a so-called "paradigm" or model for
church growth from Barrington, Illinois called "Willow
Creek Community Church." They speak of "practical" Christian
doctrine which is "pragmatic," meaning whatever works to
bring in the numbers of people and dollars (The Bridge,
Harding Graduate School of Religion, Volume 41, Number 4,
July 2000, p. 1). Their goal clearly is to please "people
today" or "contemporary Christians" (ibid.). And, from
where did Bill Hybels, founder of WCCC, get this model now
being so widely imitated among denominational people like
Rick Warren and many Christians who formerly
considered themselves to be members of the church of
Christ? Hybels wrote in Rediscovering Church, "But what could
seem like a patterned formula is actually a twenty-year
response to the fluid, daily, unpredictable leading of God.
The unimpressive truth is that we made the whole thing up
as we went along, trusting the Holy Spirit for each next step,
rarely seeing which direction the path ahead would take.
It was only by following the voice of God~by listening for his
particular call to us--that we could move forward with
confidence" (p. 53). The Holy Spirit leads, guides, and
directs only through his word, the Bible, today (Eph.
6:17; II Tim. 3:16-17). Therefore, taking away the Holy Spirit
directly leading Hybels all that is left is, "The
unimpressive truth is that we made the whole thing up as we
went along...."
A summary of this new model will be given
in three points: 1) The strategy for changing the name to the
Community Church, 2) the organizational structure of the
Community Church, and 3) the evangelistic thrust of
the Community Church. Point one, the name Community
Church is preferred because traditional names are viewed
as carrying unwanted baggage. Contemporary people want to
be in charge of the church without old restrictions, so
a break with the past is made in accepting a new name.
Contemporary people do not want to learn Christian
doctrine; they just want to be free to express themselves
in whatever way they "feel" the Holy Spirit directly is
leading them. Point two, the Community Church is
organized around a twofold structure, large group celebrations
and small affinity groups or cell groups. The way the
professor of Christian doctrine at Harding University Graduate
School of Religion in Memphis has organized the Community
Church of which he is a shepherd is into small groups of eight
to sixteen adults. Large group gatherings are
celebrations; small group gatherings are "entry points."
Informal dress, contemporary Christian music,
testimonials, praise team presentations (music and drama), and
hand clapping make up the celebration of the large group
meetings. Sharing, praying, evangelizing, and Bible study make
up the small group meetings. Point three, the
evangelistic thrust of the Community Church centers around
targeting the type of people the church wants to
evangelize. Most pick younger (late thirties or early forties)
people who are well educated and have
good incomes. The one or ones in charge
find out what that group wants and then sets out to
unreservedly give it to them. Somehow granting these
"contemporary people" what they want is supposed to generate
within them holiness and communion with God.
The source from which the Community Church
model or paradigm is making its way into the churches of
Christ is out in the open. Sadly, it is the Christian schools.
The generation who established these schools for the education
of Christian young people in an environment conducive to
Christian growth and development based on the inspired
word of God are now deceased. Younger men impressed with
the soaring expense of operating these enterprises know
it will take large sums of money for them to continue to
compete for the brightest and best students. Churches
now primarily made up of older people have given their
all to keep them viable, but their children have married and
moved into other cities and communities; their
pre-inflation blue-collar-worker dollars no longer are enough.
At this point in time, not all of the Christian schools
have succumbed to the pressure. They remain worthy of personal
and financial support. But, those that are participating
in the Community Church movement or are silent about it, thus,
facilitating it, are not worthy of another dollar from
the pockets of Christian parents who formerly have entrusted
their precious children to them for instruction in
righteousness (Eph. 5:11).
The schools that are known to be promoting
the Community Church from the published sources earlier
mentioned are these: Abilene Christian University, Harding
University (the academy, undergraduate, and graduate schools
are and have supported the Community Church. The dean of
the graduate school, Evertt Huffard, is credited with
starting the Downtown Church in Memphis way back in 1995.
See: Harding Alumni Magazine, August 1995),
Oklahoma Christian University, Lipscomb University,
Pepperdine University, Rochester College, and Southern
Christian University (a retired faculty member, Edward R.
Barels, has gone on record in favor of the Community Church,
so whether or not SCU itself favors the movement needs to
be clarified by SCU officials. SCU’s name appears in
The Christian Chronicle articles). (See editor's note
below.)
A leading characteristic of brethren who
are in favor of the Community Church is a down play of Bible
doctrine and an arrogant chiding of following the Bible as a
"blueprint." Isaiah wrote, "To the law and to the testimony:
if they speak not according to this word, it is because
there is no light in them" (Isa. 8:20). Jesus said, "Wherefore
by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt. 7:20). Paul
wrote, "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply,
that they may be sound in the faith" (Titus 1:13).
Editor's Note: Alan E. Highers has
published the following statement in the January 2001 issue of
The Spiritual Sword: "We are happy to note that SCU officials
have come forward in a forthright manner in disassociating
themselves from the community church movement. The
chairman of the Board of Regents states: 'I assure you that we
hold not one shred of support for the movement that you
have described or any of its related false doctrines.' We
appreciate this statement and we are pleased to set the
record straight."
qu
Q"r^*^0QU"r*"ri-iE*0Q[\i3E[\i3u
s*process*******************************************************************************
**
"Citizens often arrive at what has been
slated as a public hearing or a public forum to find that
things don't seem quite right; that there is suddenly this new
way of conducting meetings that somehow doesn't seem right.
Instead of chairs set up for the audience with
microphones where they can give input; there are now tables
with chairs where people sit in circles and are
facilitated by a pre-chosen facilitator."
http://www.icehouse.net/lmstuter/act.htm
THE PEOPLE'S CHURCH
A WAYWARD VESSEL
By: Paul Proctor
I walked through the doors of The First
Baptist Church in the spring of 1995 after having been
somewhat of a prodigal son for roughly 10 years. I had
recently rededicated my life to Christ and wanted to once
again be a part of a loving church family. As I entered
and sat down to the joyful noise of a magnificent choir and
orchestra praising God in song, my heart and soul were
filled with wonder, excitement and great expectation. I was
truly being prepared for worship.
When the preacher finished his sermon, I
was spiritually refreshed and energized for the week ahead.
His message had been clear, powerful, convicting, biblical and
full of the Holy Spirit. Over time I grew to love
this brother in Christ because of his faithfulness and
passion for the gospel. After visiting the church for
some months, I knew I had found a church home.
A couple of years later, the pastor invited
me to lunch at a nearby country club he frequented where he
mentioned in passing his desire to eventually do away with the
First Baptist Church name and simply call it
"The People's Church", claiming "that's what everyone
called it anyway". Still taken by the man's persona, I
smiled and nodded in approval as he told me of wanting to
take the church in "a new direction", away from
the Southern Baptist stigma that he felt had somehow
hindered us in the past and move on greater
things. Unfortunately, he didn't elaborate on what that
"new direction" was and I mistakenly assumed that he
meant toward a non-denominational identity.
In the coming weeks and months a new
message began emanating from his pulpit not unlike what had
been coming from, of all places, the presidential podium of
Bill Clinton during the height of his scandals.
A re-occurring theme of "tolerance, diversity and unity"
seemed to permeate almost every sermon. It
became increasingly clear to me that the pastor's "new
direction" was worldly and that he was now being guided
by someone or something other than God. Friction grew
between the two of us over the course of time as
his sermons turned away from the gospel that leads to
repentance and faith in Christ to the social psychology
of get-alongism. Sure, the Bible calls us to live in
peace with one another, to keep and maintain
healthy relationships with our brothers and sisters in
Christ, but NOT at the expense of God. The pastor I once held
in such high regard began reciting "group-think"
platitudes like: "YOU CAN'T BE RIGHT WITH GOD AND AT ODDS
WITH EVERYONE ELSE", meaning it was now time for us all to
compromise our conscience and convictions for the
collective. This is the "Consensus Process" at work, a 200
year-old socialist brainwashing technique known by social
psychologists the world over as the "Hegelian Dialectic",
developed by Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel in the late
1700's that involves the practice of compromise to achieve
social harmony between opposing groups and/or belief
systems. The "Hegelian Dialectic" is especially damaging to
those of the faith who are compelled by the process to
accept the unacceptable in order to gain the approval of the
group. It is the herd mentality of humanist thinking and
an abomination before God.
You see the Bible is FULL of godly men who
stood alone and died fighting the heresy of the herd
mentality, including Jesus Himself. Being "at odds with
everyone else" is EXACTLY what got Him nailed to a cross!
He said: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the
gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,
and many there be which go thereat: Because strait is the
gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) This
certainly doesn't bode well for pastors whose primary
agenda is church growth and big numbers.
It was not a tolerant Jesus who cleared the
temple in Jerusalem of moneychangers with a whip or a tolerant
John the Baptist who publicly railed against King Herod for
marrying his brother’s wife or a tolerant Paul that stood
up against Peter for alienating uncircumcised believers or
tolerance that got most of the disciples beheaded or
crucified in the early days of the church. Yet, here we are
entering a new millennium, crossing that illustrious
"Bridge To The 21st Century", as a re-invented church of
tolerance, diversity and unity. As the doors are all
thrown open to anyone and anything, I ask you, is the church
affecting the culture or is the culture infecting
the church? Who is proselytizing whom here?
Look around and tell me what you see.
It wasn't long before a vulgar campaign for
cash began at The People's Church as if someone was running
for political office, complete with banquets, dinners, awards,
lots of flattering speech, testimonials,
presentations, private meetings and special attention
given to the church's "big givers", (their term, not mine) all
to benefit a massive new building program that would put
us in a high-tech "worship center" and twelve million dollars
in debt.
Today when I walk into that entertainment
complex on Sunday morning where a sanctuary used to be, I see
a lot of cushioned movie theater seats where pews used to be;
a big multi-media projection screen where a wooden cross
used to be; a half dozen choreographed entertainers performing
to applause where a choir used to be; a jazz/rock band
playing solos where an orchestra used to be; a young female
singer leading simplistic chants before a confused
audience, where a music minister used to lead great hymns of
worship and praise to God and where a charming
"facilitator" in a golf shirt preaches that we should all GO
ALONG TO GET ALONG, where a once humble man of God in a
suit and tie used to courageously proclaim the Word of God.
Just the other day I was listening to a
pre-recorded radio program on the internet called "Steel On
Steel" hosted by John Loeffler. He was interviewing a former
teacher and expert on European history and philosophy by
the name of Dean Gotcher about the "Hegelian Dialectic" or
"Consensus Process" and how it is has successfully been
integrated into the government, the media, the military, law
enforcement, public education, colleges, seminaries and
even the church to centralize everything and unify us all into
the socialist mindset of global governance. The
global-socialist goal is and always has been a one-world
government and a one-world religion. They have used the
"Hegelian Dialectic" for centuries to control large
populations around the world and steer them toward a "New
World Order". Near the end of the hour-long program, he
casually mentioned a couple of Christian organizations
that were known for seducing churches into this "Consensus
Process" with "progressive" church-growth programs where
compromising brings in big numbers. The temptation of
such worldly fruit is obviously hard to resist, even
among the most faithful of pastors. Nonetheless, doing
unholy things in the name of Christ does not make them
holy.
When Dean Gotcher mentioned one of those
organizations as being "The Willow Creek Association", bells
began ringing, lights began flashing and all of a sudden five
years of confusion, contention and controversy between my
pastor and me were INSTANTLY brought into complete clarity. OF
COURSE! The People’s Church belonged to the Willow Creek
Association! Once my eyes were opened to their carnal ways
through additional research, combined with all that I had
learned over the years about global-socialism, I became
convinced that we, (the church) had been brought into the
"Consensus Process" by way of a socialistic humanist
organization posing as a Christian ministry, complete
with "change-agents" and "facilitators" (wolves in sheep's
clothing) that I myself had encountered personally from
Sunday School to Sunday worship. Apparently, THIS was
the pastor's "new direction" for The First Baptist
Church. It came as no surprise to later discover that
Willow Creek's founder, Bill Hybels is a dear friend and
personal minister to the nation’s most renown socialist
and "facilitator", Bill Clinton. NOW I KNOW why my pastor
began sounding so 'Clintonesque" in his Sunday
morning sermons some three or four years ago.
As I went on to research The Willow Creek
Association, I discovered that thousands upon thousands of
established churches around the country were being transformed
into sensory driven "seeker churches" EXACTLY like ours
under the guidance and direction of this organization, all
with the same tolerance, diversity and unity theme,
liberal worship format, scripturally shallow teaching, heavy
on the comfort and light on the conscience, equipped with
huge multi-media projection screens, large sound systems,
exotic music, no choir, female ministers,
feelings-motivated skits, dance interpretations and heavily
burdened with millions of dollars of debt from building
state-of-the-art entertainment venues they call "worship
centers". I think the revolving disco ball sparkling
overhead at our dedication service a couple of years ago was a
REAL poignant moment for me personally.
"Love not the world, neither the things
that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of
the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the
lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of
life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the
world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth
the will of God abideth forever." (1st John 2:15-17)
I have long-since worn out my welcome with
certain members of the church staff by repeatedly protesting
our involvement in these ecumenical movements and carnal
extravaganzas beginning with the "men's movement"; that
emotionally driven, highly advertised, celebrity endorsed,
spiritually misguided and now financially
bankrupt organization known as "Promise Keepers". The
"Consensus Process" or "Hegelian Dialectic"
teaches "facilitators" to isolate, intimidate and even
shame their critics into silence and cooperation with "hurt
feelings" as their license and authority. This too is
carnal. Those seeking group acceptance and approval are
powerless against it. Frankly, I'd much rather have God's
acceptance and approval than the herd's. You see The
Willow Creek Association always emphasizes "felt needs",
unity, harmony, peace and human relationships
over everything else...Just like the United Nations. But,
that's not the Gospel.
"Consensus" is all about compromising
toward "group-think" not God think. It is conformity to the
collective through peer-pressure. This is the very heart of
the heresy. Centralization toward globalism is the reason
for consensus and explains why so many big corporations
have merged into government-controlled monopolies; why
the two major political parties have become almost
indistinguishable; why national borders have
become virtually meaningless; why national sovereignty is
being surrendered to the United Nations; why the
Constitution is being ignored by our own president; why
"The Millennium World Peace Summit of Religious and
Spiritual Leaders" is meeting in August to christen a One
World Religion and world leaders from 160 nations are
meeting in September at the UN. for "The Millennium
Summit" to initiate World Government, complete with its
own criminal court, tax system and standing army.
Unfortunately, the nasty little secret about the consensus
process is that any and all issues discussed usually have
a pre-determined outcome provided by the
attending "facilitator". Imagine that! Conscience and
compromise can NEVER co-exist. They are ALWAYS incompatible.
One MUST surrender to the other for there
to be unity. Consensus therefore, will ALWAYS lead it's
followers away from biblical absolutes and Authority (i.e.,
"Thus sayeth the Lord....") to obtain the acceptance
and approval of the group.
We all want to be loved don't we? Some of
us are desperate to be loved. It is undoubtedly why so many
have given their lives to the entertainment and film industry
and made Hollywood their "Emerald City". They have been
taught throughout the 20th century that if they could only be
a "big star" they would be loved and accepted by
everyone. The desire to BE LOVED is natural but loving those
that don’t agree with us is unnatural and difficult.
Jesus said: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This
is the first and great commandment. And the second is like
unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself". Yet,
millions of children for over half a century listened and
learned as The Wizard Of Oz told the Tin Man: "...a heart
is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are
loved by others." This is consensus over conviction,
covetousness over conscience and flesh over spirit, the heresy
of Hollywood and the wages of Willow Creek...following
the crowd and the culture in order to be loved and accepted.
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a
man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Proverbs
14:12)
The bottom line is this; Willow Creek is a
showboat, sold as a Christian cruise that in time will be
remembered as another Titanic. The First Baptist Church is
truly becoming "The People's Church", because that is
exactly who they have chosen to follow and obey...PEOPLE.
Needless to say, after 5 long and frustrating years
aboard this wayward vessel, I'll be going in search of a
humble fishing boat where the waters are calm, the nets
are full, the crew is faithful, and Christ is the
captain, because as Paul Harvey says: "Now I know the REST of
the story".
"They have not known nor understood: for he
hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts,
that they cannot understand." (Isaiah 44:18)
Paul Proctor is a free lance writer and a
regular contributor to Ether Zone. Paul can be reached at pdp@usa.com Published in the
August 18,2000 issue of Ether Zone Online Copyright © 2000
Ether Zone Online, (http://etherzone.com).
Reposting permitted with this message
intact.
****************
WILLOW
CREEK, HEGELIAN DIALECTIC AND THE NEW WORLD ORDER
By: Paul Proctor
No sooner do I finish my piece about Willow
Creek Association's seduction of 14,000+ churches around the
world, including my own, via the Hegelian Dialectic, than Ted
Koppel shows us the actual process at work on ABC
News Nightline between evangelical leaders and Bill
Clinton at the Willow Creek Church in South Barrington,
Illinois.
With ministers from around the country
attending Willow Creek's Leadership Conference, Bill Hybels,
acting as "facilitator", brings everyone into the "Consensus
Process" to hear Bill Clinton's confession-less appeal for
forgiveness to try and gain the approval and acceptance
of the evangelical community just in time for the Democratic
Convention.
For the benefit of those who have not yet
heard of the Hegelian Dialectic, let me briefly run through it
as taught by Authority Research Center president, Dean
Gotcher. The Hegelian Dialectic or "Consensus Process" is a
200 year-old, three-step process of "thesis, antithesis
and synthesis", developed in the late 1700's by a german named
Georg William Friedreich Hegel that results in what we
now know as "group-think". It is a system Dean calls "Praxis"
that Socialists have used for centuries to seduce, seize
and control mass populations without warfare. It is also in
full operation here in the United States under such names
as: "Outcome Based Education", "Goals 2000",
"Sustainable Development", "School To Work", "DARE" and
many more. It's all about embracing "tolerance, diversity and
unity" for The New World Order. To put it in layman's
terms, it's brainwashing.
Here's how it works: A group gathers, and
has agreed beforehand that each in attendance will ultimately
surrender his or her own personal position on any given issue
to the will or "consensus" of the group after ‘processing to
consensus* through dialog. In a Christian setting, the
presupposition is that the group's will determines "the will
of God". The group's "facilitator", whoever that may be,
mediates between sides, be they "good and evil", "for and
against", "republican and democrat", "liberal and
conservative", etc., whatever the case may be, often
instigating heated confrontations between the opposing
sides for the purpose of suggesting compromise as the perfect
solution to restore and maintain the peace and the
relationships of everyone involved. The resulting outcome or
‘consensus* is then reintroduced if necessary, at the next
meeting for more "Praxis", more dialog and more compromise
until another "consensus" is reached. Then the "process"
repeats all over again...and again...and again until the
facilitator's desired outcome is achieved. Over time, the
convictions and concerns anyone may have had originally are
processed away beyond recognition or relevance leaving
one and all to accept the facilitators pre-determined outcome
as the consensus of the group. It's no longer a question
of what is right or wrong, good or bad, lawful or unlawful,
but rather HOW WE ALL FEEL ABOUT IT...no absolutes, no
conscience, no convictions, no laws, no Constitution, no Bible
and NO GODIIISonly consensus....and a contrived consensus
at that. Pretty slick huh? That's the Hegelian Dialectic.
That's exactly what "facilitator" Bill
Hybels accomplished the other day between church leaders
attending the Willow Creek Conference and his friend Bill
Clinton on ABC^ Nightline. Protesting evangelicals (thesis),
demanded socialist Bill Clinton (antitheses), answer for
his lies and sexual indiscretions at the meeting. Hybels, as
the "facilitator" voices their protests and then injects
that Clinton HAD confessed to them by saying he publicly
admitted: "I have sinned". Yeah, well...we ALL have
sinned Bill. The Bible says it in Romans 3:23. That's not
news. That's not a confession either. Nor is a
politically expedient appearance in front of a church full of
evangelical Christians before the Democratic Convention a
demonstration of repentance. The fact is, Clinton has done
everything he possibly could to save his political neck
leaving a bloody trail of "Arkancides" strung out from Little
Rock, to Washington D.C., to Waco, to Ft. Worth, to Ruby
Ridge, to Kosovo, to Croatia, to China and beyond. While
Hybels brings everyone together under socialism's
religious umbrella of "tolerance, diversity and unity",
Clinton's REAL crimes continue to be covered
up, whitewashed, blackmailed, threatened, bribed and
snafued away.
But that's OK. The good reverend just wants
us to forgive his pal Clinton so we can all be one big happy
family. Thesis + Antitheses = Synthesis...the Hegelian
Dialectic. Sounds like the perfect formula for an Apostate
Church to me. I wonder if Hybels has sent everyone
personal invitations to "The Millennium World Peace Summit of
Religious and Spiritual Leaders", meeting at the United
Nations later this month as well? I hear they're all getting
together to create a great big One World Religion for us
here on planet Earth. Won't that be wonderful? A WORLD CHURCH!
(continued from page 28)
Paul Proctor is a free lance writer and a
regular contributor to Ether Zone. Paul can be reached at pdp@usa.com Published in the
August 24,2000 issue of Ether Zone Online Copyright ©2000
Ether Zone Online, (http://etherzone.com).
Reposting permitted with this message
intact.
ick'k'k'kickick'k'k'klckick
.........THE
TIME LINE.........
What
Happened This Week at Madison
February 2001
Most Madison Church of Christ members were
oblivious to this article in the February "Plumbline
Newsletter" which quotes the "Madison Marcher"
More
Holy-roller Influence at Madison*
The third worship service at Madison is to
be held at the same time as the 10:30 a.m. worship. The
"atmosphere will be more conducive to non-Christians." "Many
un-churched people are intimidated by a more formal
atmosphere...." The worship affair will be an effort,
"...to make it easier for people with no church background to
feel comfortable...." "More time will be given to singing
and communion... The sermons will not be as long as what we
are used to." "There is no question that God is working
among our church family. He recognized our suppressed capacity
to love." “Attendance for this first Sunday was 538
souls." Jim Hinkle said, "We will not be still, we will not be
quiet."
In February of
2001 the Elders announced that a
"third Contemporary" service that they had previously formed,
was going to be melted into the 10:00 am or second service.
This announcement established a
"contemporary service" at 10:00 AM and the 8:00 AM service
remained unchanged.
While making this announcement, Elder Buck
Dozier said the Fire Marshall’s office had said there were too
many people in the third service for the size of the
auditorium. Since Buck is the past Fire Chief, one has to
wonder if this was just a staged excuse to proceed with
what was already planned.
February
25,2001
Tom Haddon is instructing his
"Homebuilders" class on how to transition the church members
over to the ways of the Saddleback Community Church, and that
of "Holy Entertainment" He talks about the well laid plans
that only a few know about. See the transcript of February 25th
class, (page 54)
March
2001
Praise teams, hand clapping, and raised
hands during prayer have been introduced at the second
service. Children’s Sunday school has been changed from bible
based to more entertainment and singing. Young
women teaching Sunday school to baptized young men.
April
13,2001
The Elders respond to a NewsChannel5 report
about growing controversy at the Madison Church of Christ.
They send out a letter to 683 Churches of
Christ in the Channel 5 viewing area.*
"The controversy seems to be over-reaction
to change. The main things we have done in the 10:30 service
are introduce more upbeat praise songs, give less time to the
sermon, and give greater emphasis to the Lord's Supper.
This embraces a more contemporary format,
of course, but we don't feel that it departs from scriptural
worship." See ConcernedMembers letter to the
Elders of 683 Churches of Christ, (page 71)
April
22,2001
In this meeting on April 22, 2001 the
Deacons ask the Elders, what is going on?
On May 02,2001 the Elders reply in a letter.
Here
are the Questions, and the Elders answers (page 34)
May
2001
ConcernedMembers receive a copy of a rough
draft of a "Covenant of Membership" (page 66) that was supposedly written by Elder Buck
Dozier. Mr. Dozier admitted "playing” around with one when
contacted.
The concern about a "Covenant of
Membership"* is that it's one of the hallmark signs of a
"Community Church" like Saddleback.
They are generally written in such a way to
assure that the membership can't take over the "community
church" like they took over your church.
July
,2001
According to THIS ARTICLE* in the
Tennessean, the Elders bring in a mediator(Larry Sullivan) to
help with the split within the church. We understand that Buck
Dozier met Mr. Sullivan while attending a "seminar".
Meetings are set up for the Elders. We
understand they had to swear to secrecy.
Meetings are set up for the members to
discuss their objections to the split contemporary and
traditional services.
It's during one of these meetings that two
people from the contemporary crowd announce that they have
broken all ten commandments, with one of them calling himself
a "tener". Since this was not "confession night", some of
the participants from the traditional folks took this as a
threat.
It's later shown by the ConcernedMembers
that LARRY
SULLIVAN is not an unbiased mediator (page 50). He
has direct ties to the Saddleback
organization. He is trained in using the HEGELIAN DIELECTIC*
techniques to compromise a groups consensus in what ever
direction is predetermined.
Mid-August,
2001
By this time many members have left the
Church.
The unpaid volunteer minister on this
particular Sunday abruptly left before giving his sermon at
the second service. He was only allowed the last 6 minutes of
worship time by the song leader.
Sometime during this period, Buck Dozier
appeared in Bill Ruhl's adult class to take over. Bill Ruhl's
absence was unexplained to the class.
August
29,2001
Concerned members send out 2500 ballots and
a LETTER
(page 39) asking for church
members to indicate on the ballot the type of church service
format they wanted. All ballots were to be received by
September 20,2001.
August
30,2001
Threatening phone calls are received by the
contractor hired by ConcernMembers to do the mailing. Other
notes not full of brotherly love are received by mail.
September
15,2001
Ballots from ConcernedMembers mailing are
tabulated, and totals posted along with a FINAL REPORT (page 41)
Comments written on the voting ballots here* (page 48)
September
23,2001
The members have been waiting on an
announcement from the Elders regarding the future format of
services at the Madison Church of Christ.
Today (09-23-01) that announcement was
made.
EVERYTHING WILL REMAIN AS
IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sunday 09-30-01 Larry Sullivan Was Guest Speaker! (The Unbiased
Mediator*)
Sunday
10-07-01
Thursday
10-11-01
Deacons had a special meeting with an
attendance of over 100 concerned members and deacons.
Petitions were given out to collect
signatures, to dismiss the elders that have split the Madison
Church of Christ.
Petitions are due to be turned in by
Wednesday the 17th.
Sunday
10-14-01
Frank Scott delivered his first in a series
of talking head animated and canned sermons.
Sometime during this period two Elders
resigned. J.D. Elliott Bobby Me Elhiney
Wednesday
10-17-01
A member reported that Wednesday night when
she inquired at the help desk as to where she should turn in
her petitions, she was told by the lady; "over there with the
trouble makers" "They are the mafia"
Sometime during this period two more Elders
talked about resigning! No confirmation of that as of today.
Sunday
10-21-01
Sermon
Second in a three part series of Frank
Scott being a talking head for a canned and animated sermon on
Joy and entertainment. The words "Corporate Worship" and Joy
and entertainment were used extensively. Interesting!
Deacons
The Deacons headed by Ben Jones nicely and
in a very godly way asked the leaders to step down and let the
Church elect new leadership.
(page 51)
Wednesday
10-24-01
Elder and Deacon meeting tonight!
We understand that the 7 or 8 elders that
have caused a split at Madison Church of Christ have been
formally asked to step down, or be disfellowshipped.
Thursday
10-25-01
Saddleback planters meeting tonight.
Talked about rebuking Ben Jones Sunday!
To rebuke - criticize or reprove sharply;
reprimand.
To reprove - to criticize for a fault or
misdeed; scold.
To rebuke/reprove Ben Jones, then Ben Jones
must have done a misdeed.
To define that misdeed those who will
rebuke him must find applicable scriptures.
What Ben did was to give each and every
Madison Church of Christ member an opportunity to ask for
forgiveness or repentance for causing division or for allowing
division to occur.
Friday
October 26th 2001
Flash Message coming in the next 72 hours
from the ConcernedMembers!*
If you are not subscribed to the email list
do it now to receive this message.
Simply click on the below link and send a
blank email to subscribe.*
Sunday
10-28-01
T H E...M A D I S O N...C H U R C H...0
F...C H R I S T ...H A S....B E E N....H I J A C K E D !!
Today according to an announcement made by
everyone's favorite elder Russ Kersten, the church has been
hijacked by all the concerned members, deacons and I guess
that includes the 5 elders that have been holding
out against them.
More details to follow, hopefully.
Is Hijack a chargable offense in the
Church?
October
29,2001
Ugly email received at pineycom.com, and
the response*
October
29,2001
We received a copy of a letter sent to the
Deacons* And we felt compelled to reply*
October
30,2001
ConcernedMembers announced future plans
November
1,2001
The Server for this web page has recorded
22,645 page views since it's creation 8 weeks ago.
November
02,2001
Transcript of Homebuilders Sunday school
class. A recording of Tom Haddon on how to transition the
congregation to Saddleback and Holy entertainment in
Homebuilders Class, (page 54)
Available Now Under Interviews &
Transcripts*
November
4,2001
J. R. Compton and wife members at Madison
Church of Christ for 58 years, came before congregation to ask
for forgiveness, and ask to have their names removed as
members.
November
7,2001
Interview with
Gary McDade of the Getwell Church of Christ in Memphis, TN.
(page 61)
Discussion concerning the takeover of
churches by the "Community Church" movement, and the
embracement of this movement by many of the Christian
colleges.
Posted now under Interviews &
Transcripts*
November
8,2001
Rumor says there has been a new preacher
hired. More details as they are known.
November
9,2001
Two different sources say Bruce White has
been hired as a new minister.
indicates article is only available on the
web. Visit: www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison
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The
Deacons Beg For Answers, And The Elders Reply!
In a Deacons Meeting on April 22,2001 ,the
below questions were asked.
On May 2, 2001 The Elders answered the
below questions with the answer in parenthesis.
Deacon Names have been replaced with
numbers, and other names have been replaced with [.........],
where it was
thought perhaps these folks might not want
to see their names in print.
RESPONSES TO
DEACONS' QUESTIONS OF APRIL 22, 2001 (In parenthesis)
1:
WITH
THIS DIGRESSION THAT WOMEN TALK IN THE CHURCH, TEACH, WHAT'S
THE NEXT THING?
(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER.)
WHAT
DO THESE WOMEN ADD TO THE WORSHIP?
WHAT
DO WOMEN ADD TO THE WORSHIP?
(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER.)
WHEN
YOU ADVERTISE [..........]
AS WORSHIP LEADER, ARE YOU NOT IMPLYING
PARTAKING OF THE
LORDS
SUPPER, GIVING, PRAYER, AND THE READING OF THE LORDS WORD IS
NOT WORSHIP?
(WORSHIP LEADER AND SONG LEADER IS NOT THE
SAME THING. AS WORSHIP LEADER, [..........]
IS
RESPONSIBLE FOR PLANNING ALL AREAS OF THE
WORSHIP SERVICE AND THEN PRESENTING THESE PLANS TO THE WORSHIP
COMMITTEE. THIS INCLUDES THE LORDS SUPPER, GIVING, PRAYERS,
AND THE READING OF THE LORDS WORD AS WELL AS THE SONG
SERVICE.)
IF
WOMEN AND MEN IN THE FRONT PEW HELPS THE WORSHIP WITH THEIR
MIKES, WHY NOT GIVE A MIKE TO EVERYBODY IN THE AUDIENCE?
(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER.)
2:
CAN
WE HEAR FROM YOU MORE OFTEN IN A WRITTEN FORM?
(WE FEEL THAT MORE WRITTEN COMMUNICATION
FROM THE ELDERS TO THE MEMBERS IS A GREAT IDEA!! CONSIDERATION
WILL BE GIVEN TO FINDING A BETTER WAY OF COMMUNICATING TO
THE CONGREGATION ON REGULAR BASIS; PERHAPS BY AN ARTICLE
IN THE MARCHER EACH MONTH.)
3:
WHEN
ARE YOU GOING TO REPENT, AND HOW LONG ARE YOU GONNA WALK DOWN
THIS ROAD AND SEE EVERYTHING FALLING APART?
(REPENTANCE IS A PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY OF
EACH INDIVIDUAL PERSON.)
A FEW WEEKS AGO YOU MADE A DECISION, YOUR
DECISION THAT SOME PEOPLE WOULD LIKE AND SOME PEOPLE WOULD NOT
LIKE, BUT YOU MADE A DECISION BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT YOU
HAD VISION. DO WE HAVE THE - DO YOU ELDERS HAVE THE FAITH
IN THE BODY OF CHRIST TO KNOW THAT IT IS GOD'S MERCY THAT
EVERYONE OF US IS HERE TODAY?
(YES, THE ELDERSHIP DOES BELIEVE THAT IT IS
THROUGH GOD'S MERCY THAT EVERYONE OF US IS HERE TODAY.)
5:
IF THE WORSHIP
FORMAT OF THE SECOND SERVICE IS SCRIPTURALLY CORRECT, IS THERE
SOMEWAY TO STANDARDIZE BOTH SERVICES SO THAT WE WILL NOT HAVE
A DIVISION IN THE CHURCH?
(THE INTENT AND PURPOSE BEHIND HAVING TWO
SERVICES CONTAINING DIFFERENT WORSHIP STYLES IS TO GIVE OUR
MEMBERS A CHOICE. WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT HAVING TWO SERVICES
IS DIVISIVE.)
I UNDERSTAND THAT
THERE ARE THREE ELDERS PLUS [...........]
AND [.............]
ON THE WORSHIP
COMMITTEE. IS
THERE ANY WAY THAT THE ENTIRE ELDERSHIP COULD OVERSEE THE
WORSHIP FORMAT SO THAT WE MIGHT BE MORE CONSISTENT EACH WEEK?
(BECAUSE OF TIME RESTRICTIONS, MUCH OF THE
WORK DONE BY THE ELDERSHIP IS THROUGH COMMITTEE ASSIGNMENTS.
THE ELDERSHIP RECENTLY ADDED ONE ADDITIONAL MEMBER AND
ONE ALTERNATE TO WORSHIP COMMITTEE. THERE ARE CURRENTLY
FOUR ELDERS AND TWO ALTERNATES
PLUS [.........] AND [ ]ON THE COMMITTEE.
THE ENTIRE ELDERSHIP DOES DISCUSS AND APPROVE THE
WORSHIP FORMAT FOR THE FOLLOWING WEEK AND
GIVE DIRECTION TO THE WORSHIP COMMITTEE ON AN OUTGOING BASIS.)
IS THERE SOMEWAY
TO HAVE A BALANCED SERVICE WITH SINGING, PREACHING, PRAYER,
AND COMMUNION?
(THE WORSHIP COMMITTEE DOES ATTEMPT TO
BALANCE THE VARIOUS WORSHIP COMPONENTS IN KEEPING WITH THE
"THEME" OF THE SERVICE ALSO THE WORSHIP STYLE OF THE SERVICE
WOULD DETERMINE THE TIME ALLOCATION OF THE VARIOUS
WORSHIP COMPONENTS.)
WHEN A STATEMENT
IS READ FROM THE ELDERS TO THE CONGREGATION, SHOULDN'T THAT
LETTER BE READ AND APPROVED BY ALL THE ELDERS BEFORE IT IS
READ?
(IN THE FUTURE, WE WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ALL
OF THE ELDERS THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE AND APPROVE THE ACTUAL
STATEMENT BEFORE IT IS READ OR GIVEN OUT TO THE CONGREGATION.)
ARE THERE PLANS
TO INCORPORATE THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST NOW OR IN THE NEAR
FUTURE?
(THERE ARE NO PLANS TO INCORPORATE THE
MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST.)
6:
WHY HAVE SOME OF
YOU ELDERS DIVIDED THE LORD'S CHURCH BY ALLOWING
[...............................] TO
CHANGE THE
WORSHIP TO THE POINT THAT IT HAS CAUSED A LOT OF MEMBERS TO
STATE THAT THEY CAN NO LONGER WORSHIP AS THEY SHOULD?
([......................]
DID NOT CHANGE THE WORSHIP. THE
ELDERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY AND ALL
CHANGES WHICH HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN PAST AND
PRESENT WORSHIP SERVICES. [..........]IS SIMPLY
IMPLEMENTING OUR DECISIONS. THE ELDERSHIP
FEELS THAT ALL MEMBERS CAN WORSHIP AT MADISON "AS THEY
SHOULD".)
(BECAUSE OF VARIOUS REASONS, IT IS VERY
DIFFICULT TO STATE THE EXACT NUMBER OF OUR MEMBERS WHICH NO
LONGER ATTEND HERE. AMONG THESE REASONS IS A FAILURE OF THE
MEMBERS TO NOTIFY THE CHURCH THAT THEY ARE MOVING THEIR
MEMBERSHIPS.)
ARE
YOU CONCERNED, AND HAVE YOU CONTACTED THEM TO BRING THEM BACK?
(THE ELDERSHIP IS EXTREMELY CONCERNED ABOUT
ANY MEMBER WHO HAS LEFT. WE ARE VERY INTERESTED IN GETTING
THEM BACK IN MADISON!! MANY CONTACTS ARE MADE WITH THOSE WE
KNOW WHO LEAVE THE CONGREGATION.)
BRETHREN, DO YOU
NOT FEAR GOD? ARE YOU NOT MINDFUL THAT ONE DAY YOU WILL STAND
BEFORE GOD AND GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR DESTROYING THE UNITY OF THE
CHURCH THAT HAS BEEN A LIGHT TO THE WORLD FOR SO LONG?
(THE ELDERSHIP DOES "FEAR GOD" AND ARE VERY
AWARE OF THE TREMENDOUS RESPONSIBILITY WHICH WE ALL BARE. WE
AGREE THAT EACH PERSON, INCLUDING ELDERS, WILL ONE DAY
"STAND BEFORE GOD AND GIVE AN ACCOUNT".)
WOULD
YOU BE WILLING TO MEET WITH JIM BILL MCINTEER AND WILLARD
COLLINS TO DISCUSS THE DIVISION OF THIS CONGREGATION?
(CONSIDERATION IS CURRENTLY BEING GIVEN TO
INVITING VARIOUS INDIVIDUALS IN TO "COUNSEL" WITH US
CONCERNING VARIOUS ISSUES. PERHAPS AT SOME POINT, THIS MAY
INCLUDE THESE TWO GODLEY MEN.)
7:
IS THIS POLICY
(POLICY IN THE MADISON STORY) STILL IN FORCE - THAT THOSE
ELDERS WHO FIND THEMSELVES IN THE MINORITY IN A DECISION WILL
GRACIOUSLY SUBMIT TO THE POSITION OF THE MAJORITY IN
ORDER TO PERSERVE THE UNITY OF SPIRIT IN THE BOND OF PEACE?
(THE ABOVE STATED IS CURRENTLY THE METHOD
USED BY THE ELDERSHIP TO MAKE DECISIONS CONCERNING ISSUES
WHICH COME UP. THIS METHOD IS ONLY USED AFTER MUCH PRAYER,
STUDY, DISCUSSION, AND DELIBERATION ON THE PART OF THE
ELDERSHIP.)
IF THE ABOVE
POLICY IS STILL IN EFFECT AS IT WAS PUBLISHED (IN THE MADISON
STORY), THEN WOULD YOU PLEASE, EACH (ELDER) GIVE US A PERSONAL
INDIVIDUAL STATEMENT EXPRESSING YOUR SUPPORT FOR THAT
FEBRUARY 4TH ANNOUNCEMENT (CONCERNING THE SECOND SERVICE BEING
A MORE CONTEMPORARY WORSHIP)?
(EACH INDIVIDUAL ELDER DOES ENDORSE THE
ABOVE STATEMENT.)
8:
WHAT'S
THE SCRIPTURAL BASIS THAT YOU HAVE FOR LETTING WOMEN, NAMELY
[...............]
AND [..........]
TEACH
AND ASSIST IN TEACHING OUR 7TH GRADE YOUNG MEN, MANY OF WHOM
HAVE ALREADY BEEN BAPTIZED?
(WITHIN OUR STUDENT MINISTRY, THE HUSBAND /
WIFE TEAM CONCEPT OF TEACHING IS USED IN SOME CLASSES. THERE
IS ALWAYS A MALE PRESENT IN CLASS IN A LEADERSHIP ROLE. THE
ELDERSHIP BELIEVES THAT THIS OCCURRED IN THE CASES
ABOVE.)
I WOULD LIKE TO
KNOW WHAT SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY DO THE ELDERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO
IMPOSE THE WANTS AND WISHES AND DESIRES OF 20 OR 30 PERCENT OF
OUR CONGREGATION - AND NEVER CONSULT THE OTHER PART OF
THE CONGREGATION.
(THE DESIRE OF THE ELDERSHIP IS TO MAKE
EACH WORSHIP SERVICE THE MOST WORSHIPFUL EXPERIENCE POSSIBLE
FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL IN ORDER TO ENHANCE THEIR SPIRITUAL
RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR LORD.)
WHY
IS IT MORE SCRIPTURAL TO SATISFY A FEW AND DRIVE OFF MANY OF
THE MAJORITY?
(THE DESIRE OF THE ELDERSHIP IS TO NOT
DRIVE OFF ANYONE!!)
I
THINK THAT WE NEED TO KNOW WHEN THE FOUR OF FIVE OR SIX ELDERS
THAT DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS DIVISION ARE GONNA STAND UP AND BE
COUNTED?
(THE ELDERSHIP DOES NOT CONDONE OR WANT ANY
DIVISION IN THIS CONGREGATION.)
WHAT
IS GAINED BY MOVING THE LORD'S SUPPER BY ANYBODY SPIRITUALLY
WHEN IT UPSETS SO MANY OF OUR ELDERLY BRETHREN? WHAT ARE
GAINING BY THIS?
(THE PURPOSE OF MOVING THE LORD'S SUPPER
PLATES AND TRAYS TO THE SIDE WALLS WAS TO GIVE THE MEN WHO
SERVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT WITH THEIR FAMILIES DURING MOST
OF THE WORSHIP SERVICE. THEY WALK TO THE "SIDE LOCATIONS"
AT THE START OF THE COMMUNION AND THEN BACK TO SIT WITH
THEIR FAMILIES AT THE END OF THE COMMUNION.)
9:
WHY HAVE SOME OF
THE ELDERS COME TO EMBRACE THE CHARISMATIC, PENTECOSTAL
MOVEMENT THAT IS SWEEPING THROUGH MANY CHURCHES AND
DENOMINATIONS ACROSS THE LAND WITHOUT CONSULTING THIS
MEMBERSHIP?
(THE ELDERSHIP DOES NOT WANT TO EMBRACE ANY
"MOVEMENT". IT IS THE INTENT OF THE ELDERSHIP TO FOCUS ON EACH
PERSON CONNECTING SPIRITUALLY WITHIN THE DYNAMICS OF THE
WORSHIP SERVICE.)
WHY
HAVE THEY (THE ELDERS) OVERSEEN THE DEPARTURE OF OVER 1500
MEMBERS WITH MORE LEAVING EACH WEEK?
(EVEN THOUGH THE CHURCH'S ATTENDANCE
RECORDS IN RECENT YEARS DOES NOT REFLECT A LOST OF MEMBERS OF
THIS MAGNITUDE, THE ELDERSHIP IS EXTREMELY CONCERNED ABOUT ANY
MEMBER WHO HAS LEFT.)
WHY
DO THEY (THE ELDERS) NOT CHOOSE TO WALK THROUGH THE AUDITORIUM
OUT THERE?
(THE ELDERS DO WALK THROUGH THE AUDITORIUM
MANY TIMES. WE ARE CONTINUING TO MAKE OURSELVES AVAILABLE TO
TALK TO MEMBERS OF THE CONGREGATION BEFORE AND AFTER
SERVICES AS WELL AS BY PHONE AND E-MAIL.)
(WHY
WERE) [.........] AND [............] PUSHED OUT OF THEIR
REGULAR SEATS TO MAKE ROOM FOR THE
PRAISE
TEAM?
(THE ELDERSHIP IS FOLLOWING UP WITH NATHAN
AND SHIRLEY ON THIS ISSUE.)
IF THOSE DEACONS
WHO ARE STILL GIVING WOULD INCREASE THEIR CONTRIBUTION, WHAT
PERCENTAGE WOULD IT TAKE TO GET US BACK UP TO SPEED, BACK UP
TO BUDGET?
(IT WOULD REQUIRE AN [..........]
PERCENT INCREASE.)
11:
IF MAJOR CHANGES
ARE REQUIRED IN THE WORSHIP, DOES THIS MEAN THAT ALL OUR PAST
WORSHIP HAS BEEN IN VAIN OR SINFUL? HAVE WE BEEN DOING THINGS
WRONG ALL THESE PAST TIMES?
(THE ELDERSHIP DOES NOT FEEL THAT PAST
WORSHIP AT THIS CHURCH "HAS BEEN VAIN OR SINFUL".)
HAVE THESE NEW
WORSHIP CHANGES SPAWNED PEACE AND UNITY OR HAS IT CAUSED
DIVISION?
(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER).
SINCE CLAPPING IS
USED IN THE BIBLE MAINLY FOR DERISION, SHOULD WE USE THAT IN
SERVICE?
(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER).
SHOULD WE LOOK TO
DO ALL THINGS IN WORSHIP OR WHAT IS EXPEDIENT?
(THE ELDERSHIP FEELS THAT WE NEED TO BE
SCRIPTURAL IN ALL MATTERS.)
IS IT RIGHT FOR
AN ELDER TO TELL PEOPLE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT WE'RE ARE
DOING, THEN YOU CAN LEAVE?
(NO, IT WOULD NOT BE PROPER FOR AN ELDER TO
MAKE THE ABOVE STATEMENT.)
HAVE THE CHANGES
IN WORSHIP BROUGHT A REPROACH OR A BLESSING ON THE CHURCH?
(WE ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING THIS MATTER).
HAVE THESE THINGS
(TV NEWSCAST, JUBILEES, SUMMER SPECTACULARS, AND PLAYS)
BROUGHT DISSENT FORM OTHER BROTHERS IN OTHER CONGREGATION?
(PERHAPS.)
HAS THE CHURCH
BEGUN TO BE IN COMPETITION WITH ENTERTAINMENT?
(IT IS NOT OUR GOAL TO ENTERTAIN.)
HAS THE GOSPEL
CHANGED, WHY SHOULD WE CHANGE THE WAY (WE) WORSHIPED IN THE
PAST UNLESS WE BE CONVICTED BY SCRIPTURE THAT THE PAST HAS
BEEN SINFUL IN THE WAY THAT WE HAVE WORSHIPED?
(THE BIBLICAL PRINCIPALS OF THE GOSPEL HAVE
NOT CHANGED, HOWEVER, THE METHODS BY WHICH THEY ARE TAUGHT AND
APPLIED TO OUR LIVES DOES CHANGE.)
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CONCERNED
MEMBERS LETTER TO CONGREGATION
To: All Members of the Madison Church Of
Christ, Past and Present From: Concerned Members with a Right
to Know Date: 08/29/2001
Subject: You Have a Right To Know What's
Happening!
Dear Member and Ex-Members of the Madison
Church of Christ,
Do you recognize this scenario?
You're at church and suddenly realize that
someone has changed your church! You ask people you know,
"What's going on", and everyone says, "I don't know". You
wonder, what do they mean! Have we been asleep? "What's
going on here?" So, you approach some of your church
elders with the same question. You get a similar answer. Now,
your gut feeling is, "something's not right here".
Someone knows what's going on here, but
it's not me!
Sunday School
You ask your children if their Sunday
School has changed? Their reply, "Yeah!". You ask, "What has
changed?" They say, "Oh we mostly sing; my teacher said,
"Things needed to be made more entertaining!" You think,
"Entertainment?", since when do families go to church to
be entertained?
A Real Life Nightmare
By now you've figured out this is not a
dream, but a real life nightmare. This nightmare is affecting
an untold number of Madison Church of Christ members. A few
very concerned members have contributed to the distribution of
this poll. How many more members share these thoughts and
concerns? The answer to that question is "We don't
know". However, we all have a right to know! You have a
right to know, if you wish!
National Worship Format Issues
There are churches in this nation that
"export" division by the very nature of their view of worship.
We will not name a particular church that causes us to make
this statement. However, other churches and church leaders
have considered the idea of emulating the spectacular
growth of one or more churches that "entertain" their members
rather than worship God because it fills the churches to
the brim, as the old phrase goes. Leaders of some of these
churches believe that members of churches who prefer what
they would call "the old beliefs" need to be converted
to entertainment, run off or run over to prevent them
from restricting growth. There is a glaring reason why this
may be happening across America, if not the world. It is
a lot easier to get people to join an entertainment venue than
to get them to commit to follow Christ and worship God in
Holy reverence.
Here are some facts that we know:
1. There are good and
godly people leaving the Madison Church of Christ in disgust.
2. The elders are not
telling us what's going on.
3. We have a right to
know what's going on, as well as anyone else that cares about
our church.
We know that we can worship God at many
fine churches in the Nashville area. However, before we make a
decision to move to another church, we have a right to know
what's going on 'behind the scenes' at Madison. You have a
right to know.
We need to find out who is in the minority.
If people who are concerned about the changes taking place at
Madison are in the minority, we may have to move our families
to churches that strengthen our beliefs and follow a
different worship format than we see emerging at Madison
Church of Christ at this time. It's not our desire to be an
element of divisiveness. It is our desire to get to the
truth and show how widespread (or not) this movement is at
Madison Church of Christ. Wouldn't you like to know? We
have a right to know, you have a right to know, every church
in Nashville has a right to know how this could happen to
their church. Can 350 people overthrow 3,500? This poll will
answer that question! Wouldn't you like to know the
answer? Oddly enough, you have part of the answer and we can
all know the whole answer by participating in this poll.
We understand that the elders are now in
"secret meetings" to make a decision on how the Madison Church
is going to be run. Here's the problem.
We don't think God's work needs to be
carried out in secret.
No one consulted the church membership
before the current changes were made in the Madison Church of
Christ worship format. The results have been devastating. Now
the Elders have announced they are meeting in secret
again to decide something that's never been asked of its
members. The Creators of change are obviously in charge and
their work is best carried out in secret. Here is your
chance to tell the Elders what they never asked you.
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"We have never heard of a member of the
Church of Christ who has infiltrated an instrumental church
and using the slow methods of change slowly pervert
the purpose for which the church was founded.
In the name of common decency and minimal
ethical behavior, a preacher or elder who finds that he does
not support the mandate of the "founding fathers
and mothers" of his church probably protected by law in
the deed should not push "over the brink." No one will
pass judgment upon one who insists they want to "worship"
with instruments and leaves without sowing discord among
brethren.
Again minimal morality would demand that
rather than take over church property, those who disagree with
the founding principles should exit and do the hard work
needed to build their own institution."
www.pineycom.com
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
k
The Final Report & Poll Results
Poll results follow this report
"There is not a split in the membership at
Madison Church of Christ! This whole problem was brought on by
a small group of people within the church that have aligned
themselves with outside influences within the community
church movement."
WHAT DO THE VOTE COUNTS MEAN?
There will be those that will cry “unfair,
biased, unscientific”, you had "hip and entertaining”, and it
should have read “contemporary”! But the small group of people
trying to initiate change won't show you any polls of
their own. They wouldn't dare, because now you’ve been exposed
to the truth about their mission.
Here is what else the small group of people
trying to initiate change won't tell you. The term “scientific
poll” refers to a survey of 1,000 people, for instance, with
the desire to project how 50,000,000 people would vote on
an issue or issues. It is imperative that the 1,000 people
be “scientifically selected” for the poll to be accurate.
When a survey is sent to the “entire
universe of possible respondents”, in this case 2500
households, the term “scientific poll” does not apply. The
results are probably reflective of the whole group even
if only a small percentage of them vote. Also, the fewer
questions asked the easier the results are to recognize.
There was only one question with two
possible answers in the poll sent out recently. Here is what I
think the results mean:
The members voted overwhelmingly to return
this vessel (The Madison Church of Christ) to a historical
scripture based worship service. Only .... 6.... votes wanted
to employ a "hip and entertaining" or “contemporary”
worship format.
What should we say about the members that
refused to vote? Does it show that they did not want to have a
"hip and entertaining” format of worship? They may be the
silent majority who usually want a “status quo”. Sure,
some of the ones that didn't vote thought a new format could
be something like a “contemporary format”, maybe a little
more clapping, a choir, an organ, etc.” But, these are
just stopover points on the itinerary; the intended final
destination of this congregation’s format is "Hip and
Entertaining", make no mistake about it. The folks just
haven't been told where they are really going!
Cruising To Saddleback
This destination of this vessel (The
Madison Church of Christ) is a " New Madison Church" aligned
with Saddleback Community Church of California. These are
outside influences working within our church. You've
already heard these names tossed around. You have already
been “salted” with them:
"The Church at Madison"
"The MADISON CHURCH".
You probably thought they were just leaving
off the "Church of Christ" part to shorten the name as many
people do when referring to any institution whatever it may
be. What you haven't heard is that there is a purpose in
leaving off the “Church of Christ” because the "New" church
will be a
community church". Not just a church in
your community but a "Community Church" like ’’Saddleback
Community Church - the fastest growing church in America and
one of the ten largest (12,000 attendance). Rick Warren
is pastor.” And yes, it's “hip and entertaining” at
the community churches. “The Saddleback Church”, where
they "program music for a purpose”. (Their words, not mine)
Besides Saddleback, there is Willow Creek
Community Church in Illinois, they are both large churches
that draw upwards of 20,000 people a week through their doors.
They are kind of like Buick and Oldsmobile, they are
different, but they are not! They both have church affiliates
in every city, all over the world. They have taken over
or established over 14,000 churches worldwide.
Read their list of facilities and events
and you will see; coffee shops, bands, orchestras, game rooms,
theaters, multi media theaters, plays, and all along with "music
programmed for a purpose".
Read their qualifications for a "Praise
Leader". You must be able to lead bands, and orchestras,
direct large performances, and coordinate all aspects of the
"Worship Experience"
But nowhere will you find knowledge of
the gospel of Jesus Christ as a
dominate qualification.
I ask you, “Is this not ‘Hip and
Entertaining’?”
But, don't take my word for it. There are
hundreds of these "community church" affiliates here in
Tennessee. Sure they used to be Baptist, Presbyterian,
Methodist, and even Churches of Christ. The three big
ones in the Nashville area are:
"The Christ Church”, Nashville
"The Peoples Church" in Franklin,
and the premier homosexual church in
Nashville,
The "Metropolitan Community Church". (MCC
Nashville)
My secretary told me this week that she got
a prerecorded phone announcement from the Cornerstone Church,
here in Madison, inviting her to "Illustrated Services" on
Sunday, where there will be FREE pop corn and peanuts and
a chance to win $15,000
See, for yourself, if they aren't replacing
solid worship with entertainment,
jf that is not what they are doing, then tell me what these
churches represent in a worship style?
HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN - HOW DO YOU KNOW
WHERE WE ARE HEADED?
The signs have been there we just did not
know how to interpret them. Gary McDade of the Getwell Church
of Christ in Memphis said; "The Community Church begins as a
parasite feeding off a thriving organism.” and "Older,
established churches of Christ are funding the vehicle of
their demise when they support the Community Church."
This thing has spread from the very
Colleges and Universities that we support! Plus they send
"planters" out to seed the "Community Church" programming.
They have taken over churches so many times, which if you
read the following you will recognize the signs.
Their elaborate plans start with a slow and
gradual "seeding" that starts in a classroom, using materials
from the "community church". It spreads like a slow moving
cancer. Soon there is a building program to facilitate
the expected growth. The building program is never really
explained why it's needed to the church body, but they
will be asked to pay for it.
Then shortly after that this cancer
spreads, to more of the elders, and up through the church
officials where they are asked to fly out
to Saddleback, for seminars and lectures on how their new
process works.
While they are there, they will be given
personality, and profile test, to see if they fit with their
new team. Also they are asked to vow to secrecy agreements to
prevent them from talking about any of this.
Meanwhile the cancer spreads, insidiously
into the children’s department, where they change all the
normal classroom teaching into one that furthers their goals
for “their little future members”.
Then one day you find that you don't have a
minister any longer, it's a "Praise Leader"
Little by little this scourge makes its way
into all departments until one Sunday it raises it's ugly head
in the adult classes where it boldly begins to take over for
your normal teacher. By this time it has run off most of
the good and Godly people that dared stand in the way. They
are now just about in full control, except for the body
(the members). If they experience any difficulty with
the remaining elders or the members, they have people
ready to fly in that are trained for this experience.
They are called "mediators" or “facilitators” but they are
really consultants who participate in causing the changes
to be put into place.
Their job is to compromise your beliefs and
to convince you that you really don't believe what you think
you do. This is a complicated process and it has many steps.
If you want to read more about the complicated process
used, search out information on the founding principle on
which it is based: The HEGELIAN DIALECTIC. This term is
based on a man’s name, “Hegel, George Wilhelm Friedrich,
1770-1831 German philosopher. His all-embracing philosophical
system, set forth in such works as Phenomenology of Mind
(1807), Science of Logic (1812-16), and Encyclopedia of
the Philosophical Sciences (1817), includes theories of
ethics, aesthetics, history, politics, and religion.” The
“dialectic”, comes from two opposing arguments
being formulated (thesis and antithesis) which are then
merged into an agreed synthesis or “compromise”.
THESE SIGNS HAVE BEEN AT THE MADISON CHURCH
OF CHRIST FOR SOME TIME!
1. There is a small
cluster of members in the Homebuilders Class that have
embraced and taught the Saddleback materials. On 02-25-01
the class was told that "entertainment" should not be
an uncomfortable word for the church.
2. One or more of the
Homebuilder class members, as well as one or more of the
ministry staff have visited Saddleback, or Saddleback
seminars. Now I wonder how many Elders have been
to Saddleback?
3. We have already had a
building program that was far more than this congregation
could afford. For whom was it built?
4. The Madison Church of
Christ now has a "Worship Leader" instead of a minister.
5. Sunday school classes
for the children and youth have been changed.
6 Good and Godly members have been run off
or they have left.
7. And now we have a paid consultant, which
we are told is a mediator, who really participates in causing
the changes to come about. Not only that, but he promotes
Saddleback's Book, "Leading Congregational Change" on his
website.
YOU, THE MEMBERS ARE THE LAST OBSTACLE!
If you fail to believe anything that I tell
you, I beg you to search out the truth for yourself.
There are a lot of ministers that have
written about this problem, however some of it is only
accessible if you have a computer and an Internet connection.
I know that some of you don't have access to a computer
and the Internet. I urge you to ask someone you know to print
these materials out for you or otherwise help you
research them.
I also urge those of you that have
computers and Internet connections, to please print this
report as well as articles on the web site and distribute them
far and wide.
We have links going to some of this
information from our web site, and we will have more. http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison
MY CONCLUSION
There is not a split in the membership at
Madison Church of Christ! This whole problem was brought on by
a small group of people within the church that have aligned
themselves with outside influences within the community
church movement.
This small group has used the tools
furnished to them by Saddleback to subvert the will of most
members by bringing on a community church program covertly.
The only split among the members is the
perception of what is happening, because they haven't been
honeslty told what is happening. They have pitted member
against member, so that their small group is not to
blame.
So it's not about old, or new. It's not
about change as much as it's simply about; Do you want the
Madison Church of Christ to join the community church
movement, and the entertainment platform that replaces
teaching the word of God?
SO WHAT DO WE DO?
We have given mere men “perceived moral and
legal authority” over us within the church. I don't know about
you, but once anyone uses me or intentionally deceives me they
lose any perceived “moral authority” over me as far as
I'm concerned.
There may or may not be a legal authority.
That could be for a good lawyer to research and a judge to
decide, should the members want to take that path.
If this small group of people trying to
change the Madison Church of Christ congregation into
something of their own worldly design succeeds, they will have
stolen something from you that's dearer than bricks and
mortar!
In the end we still have one vote. Each of
us will have to ask ourselves where our support will best
serve The Lord.
There are members in your midst that love
you so much that they have been shouting from rooftops, trying
to warn fellow members. They have lost sleep, prayed
relentlessly, and endured intimidation, to let you know.
They are devoted Christians.
There are many.
One of those members I must credit for
pointing me in a direction that made my research possible, is
Bobby M. Johnson.
There are others.
The web site will be left in place so you
can use it as a hub at; http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison
WHO ARE YOU?
I'm shy and the last person that wants to
be called on to lead a prayer in public, to wait on the Lord's
Table, or to greet members at the door. I'm the last person in
the whole wide world that wants to bring you this
message. However, when I discovered what was happening, I
realized it was almost too late and I had been asleep!
"They have not known nor understood: for he
hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts,
that they cannot understand." (Isaiah 44:18)
I couldn't believe how big and hideous this
thing appeared to be. I looked around to see if someone was
warning our fellow passengers about this storm. Surely there
would be someone doing that. There were people warning
them but no one seemed to be listening! I saw
members that didn't understand what was happening, and
they were begging for answers. If something were to be
done, it had to be fast and it had to get everyone's
attention.
I'm the last person in the world that
wanted to do this!
But, I have been so blessed by God, and
shaken by what I discovered, I couldn't refuse this call.
I was born in 1949, and raised in the
Madison Church of Christ most of my life. Baptized by Ira
North, attended David Lipscomb High School, and College. I was
always taught to have great respect for the Elders, and
the people of Madison Church of Christ. I was also taught to
respect people older than me.
I am blessed with a loving Christian wife
and two loving Christian children. The Lord blesses me in
other things as well, to numerous to mention.
My mission is not over. I'll be taking this
message to other churches, their members, and to anyone else
that will listen.
The first thing I'll be doing though, is
trying to find a person I know, that has already been through
this at his former congregation. When his ordeal was over he
said, "I'll be going in search of a humble fishing boat
where the waters are calm, the nets are full, the crew is
faithful, and Christ is the captain, because as Paul
Harvey often said: "Now I know the REST of the story."”
I'm hoping this person will invite me to
his church this Sunday.
With Christ In My Heart,
David Rhoades
A*THOUGHT**************************************************************
~k
You must either think that the actions of
the elders have been at the direction of the Holy Spirit. Or
you must think their actions were not directed by the
Holy Spirit. If you think they were not, then who do you
think was directing them?
***********************************************************************
*
(Check only the
box that most nearly describes your feelings)
[
] OPTION 1
-1 wish that the Madison Church of Christ would return to ifs
historically
established format
Current
member
identified..................................................................329
Current
member
unidentified.................................................................42
Past
member
identified.........................................................................47
Past
member
unidentified........................................................................8
Unknown
identified..............................................................................101
Unknown
unidentified............................................................................29
TotaI
Votes For Option
......................................................................556
[
] OPTION 2 - I wish that the Madison Church of Christ would change into a more
hip and
entertaining format
Current
member
identified.....................................................................0
Current
member
unidentified.................................................................6
Past
member
identified..........................................................................0
Past
member
unidentified......................................................................0
Unknown
identified.................................................................................0
Unknown
unidentified.............................................................................0
T
ota I Votes For Option 2
.......................................................................6
NO VOTE - Ballot
did not indicate choice
Current
member
identified....................................................................11
Current
member
unidentified..................................................................0
Past
member
identified...........................................................................0
Past
member
unidentified.......................................................................0
Unknown
identified................................................................................15
Unknown
unidentified..............................................................................1
Total
Votes For Option
1.........................................................................27
TOTAL
VOTES...........................................................................................................589
Identified = Name
was present Unidentified=Name was not
present Unknown=Member status not indicated
Whafs Your
Opinion On The Elders Ability To Solve the Worship Format
Problem?
Do you have faith
in the Elders ability to solve this problem?
Yes,
I think they will solve
it.................................................................21.21
% (14)
No,
I don't think they
can.....................................................................65.15
% (43)
I'm
not
sure..........................................................................................13.64
% (9)
Total votes: 66
Can You Say That
You Have Been Fully Informed By The Elders of The True Nature
of The Conflict at the Madison Church Of Christ?
Yes, I have been
truly informed by the
elders........................................14.06 % (9)
No,
I have not been truly informed by the
elders...................................85.94 %
(55)
Total votes: 64
Would You Be In
favor of reducing the number of elders to 10 from the current
15?
No,
we need 15
elders..........................................................................24.56
% (14)
Yes,
we don't need 15
elders................................................................75.44
% (43)
Total votes: 57
Would You Be In
Favor of a Reaffirmation of Each Elder ?
No.
Elders should not be
reaffirmed....................................................20.69
% (12)
Yes,
Each Elder should be
reaffirmed.................................................79.31%
(46)
Total votes: 58
Are The Elders
Being Honest With Their Members About Larry Sullivan?
Yes, I think they
have been very honest about Larry Sullivan...........11.43 %
(4)
No,
They haven't been honest about Larry
Sullivan..........................88.57
% (31)
Total votes: 35
******************************************************************
"As a Christian warrior our only sword is
the truth. and yes, it does burn like alcohol poured on an
open wound. Does that mean you had rather not know the
truth?"
***********************************************************************
COMMENTS WRITTEN ON THE VOTING
BALLOTS
THANKS FOR ASKING
ME HOW I FEEL
.....WE WOULD
LIKE TO SEE THE ELDERS TAKE A FIRM STAND AND MAKE THAT
ANNOUNCEMENTS.
WE NEED TO GET
BACK TO THE BIBLE.
27 YEARS.
A GOOD PERMANENT
MINISTER WOULD BE VERY HELPFUL.
ADDED "AS IT
SHOULD BE" (OPTION 1) AND WROTE "LET ME KNOW WHERE I CAN SEND
MONEY IF NEEDED".
ADDED A CATEGORY
"CHANGE TO A MORE PRAISING AND WORSHIPING FORMAT".
BUT PLEASE NO
MORE "DRAGGY" SINGING.
CHANGED "WISH" TO
"PRAY" (OPTION 1).
CHANGED SECOND
OPTION TO "CHANGE TO A MORE WORSHIPFULL FORMAT. ALSO A NOTE
THAT THIS WAS UNFAIR AND BIASED????
COMMENTS ABOUT
THE SONGS.
DISEASED.
GOOD WORK.
IF ANYONE WANTS
THIS (OPTION 2) THEY SHOULD GO TO DENIM AND DIAMONDS. LETTER.
LETTER SAYING SHE
MADE COPIES FOR 2 OTHER PEOPLE.
MEMBER FOR 47
YEARS.
MEMBERS - RIGHT
NOW.
MEMBERS AS OF
NOW. THEY WANT TO WORSHIP, NOT BE ENTERTAINED.
MOVED MORE THAN A
YEAR AGO. COPIED SISTERS BALLOT. SENT NEW ADDRESS.
NOT SO MUCH
SINGING, PLEASE.
ONLY IF BIBLE
BASED (OPTION 1).
PAST MEMBERS AS
OF 9/2/01.
PLEASE HELP US
GET OUR CHURCH BACK.
QUOTED
SCRIPTURES.
REFUSED.
REPLACED "A MORE
HIP ENTERTAINING FORMAT" WITH "MODERN SONGS AND MORE
UPLIFTING" (OPTION 2).
REQUESTED MORE
FORMS.
REQUESTED RESULTS
BY MAIL.
SENT "NASTY"
LETTER COMPARING SENDERS AS TERRORISTS.
SONGS TOO SHORT,
TOO FAST.
SOON TO BE PAST
MEMBER IF THINGS DON'T CHANGE.
THANK YOU FOR
SURVEY.
THE CHURCH WAS
STARTED & BUILT ON THE OLD WAY.
THE ENTIRE CHURCH
IS IN MY PRAYERS. THANK YOU FOR THIS EFFORT.
THIS IS
COWARDLY....ETC.
WE ARE FOR YOU
ALL THE WAY.
QUOTE*FROM*E-
l*
RECEIVE D* *********************************************
THANK YOU LORD.
I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE.
ick'k'k'kickick'k'k'klckick
WHO IS LARRY SULLIVAN AND THE
STRAUSS INSTITUTE?
HIS
WEB SITE REVEALS A PARTICULAR TRUTH ABOUT HIM WHICH IS QUITE
DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HE WAS DESCRIBED TO BE WHEN HE WAS
PRESENTED TO THE CONGREGATION AND THE NEWSPAPER!
QUOTES FROM THE NASHVILLE TENNESSEAN
"Elders at the Madison Church of Christ said Sunday they would
bring in a church dispute resolution expert to
help resolve the split developing in the church over
worship styles."
"The Madison church's elders asked Sullivan
to help them mediate their conflict after an elder worked with
Sullivan in a dispute-resolution class."
"Church elders discovered Sullivan when one
of them attended a seminar of his about how to handle church
disputes, Hoppes said. Sullivan had served in Churches of
Christ for 25 years before working at Pepperdine
University, where he trains Churches of Christ to handle
dispute resolution on their own and acts as a mediator in
resolving church disputes."
"With other churches, Sullivan said, he has
tried to speak with everyone involved to find out which issues
are at the heart of the matter. He then facilitates discussion
and problem solving among the parties."
"I call it eliminating the noise so they
can hear each other and hear God," he said."
Do you think that Mr Sullivan offers an
unbiased service of mediation to the Church?
Well first we understand that his group is
being paid to offer his services.
Almost the same words used in the newspaper
article were used to describe Sullivan’s role to the church by
one or more of the elders and by Mr. Sullivan himself standing
before the congregation.
SIMPLY
VISITING HIS WEB SITE REVEALS MR. SULLIVAN’S REAL AGENDA AND
POSSIBLY THAT OF MOST OF THE ELDERS.
The Headline of the web page is "Leading
Congregational Change" which ironically is also the title of
the book. Mr. Sullivan promotes at one of his web sites..
Here are direct quotes from one of his web
sites:
“Rick Warren of Saddleback Community Church
recommends that church leaders read "Leading Congregational
Change"”
"Leading a church to change from being
tradition- or program-driven to being purpose-driven is a task
filled with all kinds of potentially explosive and divisive
issues. This is a book [Leading Congregational Change] you
ought to read before you change anything."
It appears that Mr. Sullivan is a change
expert, not an unbiased mediator!
Mr. Sullivan, it appears is using
"Consensus Processing" to achieve a predetermined result - a
change in the worship format at Madison.
It
appears that some of the Shepherds are not exactly being
honest with their flock.
TRANSCRIPTION
OF BEN JONES’ REMARKS AND CLOSING PRAYER,
UNEDITED 10/21/01
*****************************************************************
8:00 AM WORSHIP
Ben Jones: Today I stand before you with a
heavy heart. In all my 71 years I have never felt such grief.
I am grieved by the obvious spirit of hostility and
division in our church family. Families are divided.
Church staff members are divided. The leadership of this
body is divided. This division was confirmed by the
mediator who publicly stated so.
After much prayer and searching of God’s
word, I realize that I need to ask forgiveness of this church
family. If I have offended anyone by doing or saying
anything, I ask your forgiveness. I have no animosity
in my heart toward anyone. I have tried to act as the
duty of God’s word in 1 Timothy 5, 17 and 20. I believe
that it is time for those of us who are deacons and
elders to repent of any part that we have had in
contributing to this division. Proverbs 6 tells us that
God hates division. And I am going to ask the elders and
the deacons to come and repent with me this morning, to
join me in this repentance. Because, brothers and
sisters, we have a deep, deep problem here at the Madison
Church, (pause)
In Matthew 12:26 our Lord tells us that a
divided house cannot stand.
I call upon this church body this morning
to repent of the antagonism that has dimmed the light of
Christ on this corner here and in this community.
For over 60 years this light has shown but
I believe this light has almost gone out. I believe the
baptized members of this congregation need to repent. I
believe it is time for those of us who are in leadership to
step down. (Speaking to someone) Yes, come on up.
(some muffled dialogue from Dale that
cannot be heard)
Dale Bishop (apparently to Ben): Do you
want me to lead the prayer?
Ben: Yeah.
Dale Bishop: Will you all bow with me
please? Our heavenly father, as we approach your throne, we
are remembering Lord that you are the Alpha, the very
beginning and the Omega, the end. Lord, we know that this is
your church and all these men that are standing on the
stage and all those who are sitting, this congregation,
humbly comes before you, Lord, confessing that we are
sinners, that we fall short of what you would have us to be.
We ask you Lord to humble our hearts, get
our hearts right, get our attitude right, but most of all,
Lord, we plead with you to help us to get the
church right in whatever capacity we are in, whatever we
do, whatever we say, that your light shines through us.
We know Lord that we have difference of
opinions a lot of times with our own families, husbands and
wives, brothers and sisters, even among the staff, but
this does not mean that we cannot have unity and have
peace. Help us Lord that whatever we do again that you
are the focus of our lives. Without you we have no hope
of eternal life. Without you we don’t have the hope of
the next minute. And, Lord, as the statement says we want
to be united. We want to have peace. We want to be
strengthened in your word. Guide us. Direct us. Give us
the wisdom to see what we can do. Defeat us when we are
wrong and hold us when we are right. Comfort us in your
own hand as no one else can do.
For we pray this in Jesus' name,
Amen.
Ben Jones: Amen.
(slight pause)
Ben Jones: We are asking (clears throat)
this church body if you will
stand and repent with us and if you will
stand and show that you are committed
to seeking men who will lead this church.
Will you do that now? (pause)
May God bless us. May once again our light
shine in this community.
I pray it all in Jesus' name.
10:00 A.M. WORSHIP 10/21/01 (unedited)
Ben Jones: I am going to read the same
thing that I read to the early service because I think that it
is important that we all stand in judgment of the Lord.
(apparently reading) Today I stand before
you with a heavy heart. In all my 71 years I have never felt
such grief. I am grieved by the obvious spirit of
hostility and division in our church family. Families are
divided.
Church staff members are divided. And the
leadership of this body is divided. The division is/was
confirmed by the mediator who publicly stated that the
division among the elders was clearly the main factor for the
division of the congregation. After much prayer and
searching of God’s word, I realize that I need to ask the
forgiveness of this church family. If I have
offended anyone by anything I’ve said or done, I ask your
forgiveness. I have no ano, no animosity in my heart
toward anyone. I have tried to act out of duty to God’s
word as stated in 1 Timothy 5, 17 and 20. I believe it
is time for those of us who are elders and deacons to
repent for any part that we have had in contributing to
this division. Proverbs 6 tells us God hates division.
And I ask that those of you who would like to repent with
me this morning for this division, I would like for you to
join me right here on this stage, (no pause) In Matthew
12:26 our Lord tells us that a divided house cannot
stand. I also recall that this church body needs to think
of repentance also. Because there is so much
antagonism in this body today that we have di.... We have
dimmed the light of Christ that has shown in this
community for over 60 years. Because of our inability to
heal the wounds of division, it is time for this body of
elders and deacons to step aside and yield to the church
body who has
lost confidence in them. I call this church
body to repentance. I would like to for you to stand with us
at this time if you feel that there is a need to select
leaders that will lead this church out of this division.
Will you stand? (pause)
Russ......
Russ Kersten: Let us pray. Our heavenly
father, many of us have known, admired, loved these men
standing on this stage for decades. Some of them have
been among your most powerful workers for getting things done
here. And, Father, they feel the need to repent. They
feel the horror of division we all do. I want each of us
here to do our best to meet with, to talk with, to talk
through, whatever problems there may be for indeed some
of the problems consist of simply not liking this
contemporary worship. Father, just, just help us not to
approach anybody or anything with the wrong
attitude because so much of your Word is all about an
attitude of love and forgiveness, so be with us as we
struggle along. Father, we know we are a room full of
sinners. There is nobody in this house today that is perfect
and just help us see the way to go. We ask in Jesus'
name, Amen.
Ben Jones: Amen.
***********************************************************************
*
In April 1990, a Christian named Stephen
Maphosah left Zimbabwe,
Africa, and traveled for his first visit
to the United States. When he turned on a Christian radio
station and listened to the music he was shocked:
"I am very sensitive to the beat in music,
because when I was a boy, I played the drums in our village
worship rituals. The beat that I played on the drum was
to get the demon spirits into the people. When I
turned on a Christian radio station in the U.S., I was
shocked. The same beat that I used to play to call up
evil spirits is in the music I heard on the Christian
station."
What the Bible
Says About Contemporary Christian Rock Music, 1990
From the article: The Pied Piper of
Spiritualism by By Dirk Anderson Full article linked from: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison
***********************************************************************
*
TRANSCRIPT OF TOM
HADDON’S CLASS
HOWTO TRANSITION THE
MADISON CONGREGATION TOWARD SADDLEBACK & HOLY
ENTERTAINMENT
Tom Haddon’s Homebuilders class 2/25/01 (or
3/25/01 date unsure)
Transcribed by Bobby M. Johnson 5/30/01
thru 6/5/01 Madison member since 1985
Important Note: BMJ will show in
parenthesis a brief phrase, words, or word to locate a
particular paragraph or collection of messages from Tom’s
class. No attempt is made to interpret Tom’s teachings
and parables or what He means. Exact words are transcribed
along with the spelling or misspelling to relate exactly
how Tom pronounced the words. Please do not think BMJ to
be illiterate or uneducated. Transcribing this tape was
near impossible. Patience and Christian love
is needed. You must read, read,
read,-----------------read , and read again.
Then when you are
through reading you must read again what
Tom says to understand. This will be very clear as you
proceed.
Tom Haddon (and only Tom) is talking:
1. (Entertainment and
holy entertainment - making words unobjectionable.)
Last week we talked about Entertainment.
--Uh, that's kind of where we started. What we said was if the
word entertainment does mean to divert ones attention, to
cause to be pleasurable, to cause to be interesting, then
that is what we’re here to do. --Um, and, and maybe it's time
we stopped trying to hide from words because they scare
people.---------
There comes a point when you have to have
enough teaching on some thing where you realize that just
because a word is maybe taken in a certain context, that that
doesn’t mean the word is wrong. And sometimes instead of
just not using it, what we need is teaching.
Does it mean we cannot we cannot use it for
a while? But at the same time during that interim term we need
to have teaching on it. We need to talk about it. Well what is
it? And soon as I say the word “holy entertainment” there
would be some who would go “ouu— ! You know I
jus(t), jus(t), it sounds so—. But in a way that’s what
we're here to do. We are here as Paul would say, “to take
your eyes off what is seen and to put it on what? — what is
unseen”. We are here to divert people’s attention —.
2. (Leadership)
We spoke about leadership. I’m not going to
say any more about leadership except to say there are
principles I'm talking about. They apply in our family, our
business, and in our church. There are people who have to
be led and our leaders have to know where we’re goin’—. (BMJ”s
Note: Tom describes an airplane trip to Columbus. A
couple of older ladies talk about Cincinnati. Tom
is worried that he has gotten on a plane to Cincinnati
instead of Columbus.- short version.)
You know the most unsettling times in any
situation in life is when you think you are on a road one
place and all of a sudden things happen around you, and you
may not understand them all and
you could be totally wrong, but all of a
sudden you think you are on a train headed one place and, but
you think the train is going somewhere else. That’s all I'm
going to say about leadership.
3. (Leadership - phase 2)
Leaders in the world know how to direct a
train. They know how to get all the people on board. When I
say all, realize that there may be people who get off because
they don’t want to go to Cincinnati. And we have to
accept that. There may be people who get off because they just
want to go to Columbus and they don’t want to go over
here. And we accept that. But we do whatever we can in
love to get everybody on board and that takes time, and it
takes patience, and it takes people who are being led by
people who say, look we may have to divert a little bit here.
We may have to fly around the storm. We may have to scoot
over because we don’t want to hit headlong into an
iceberg, but our basic direction is unchanged, and everybody
knows where we are going. That’s all I’m going to say
about leadership. Umm — let me say when I say that too, I
think we have some wonderful leaders here. I really do.
4. (No surprises, a
morning shower and a surprise birthday party, & surprises
in worship.)
No surprises. That was one of the things I
had. No surprises. Sometimes you say you want us, you know,
well you know when, let’s just surprise people when you get on
an airplane an, an they think they are goin’ to Columbus
an, but let's just send them to Cincinnati. You don’t want to
be surprised. A lot of us know what it’s like to be
surprised, don’t we? Surprises — you know how would you
like a surprise shower — a surprise birthday party when you
stepped out of the shower one morning? Sometimes that's
what surprises in worship are like. You just feel violated all
of a sudden you know. You just uh — uh. We don’t want
surprises.
5. (Teach, teach, teach,
teach, teach, teach, teach, teach —.)
We want to teach about where we are going.
We want to lead people. I was hopin’ an prayin’ I could say
this in a way that didn’t turn people off. And that uh, that
uh, that was humorous and still got a point across. We
need to teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, and
then when we
are through teaching, we need to teach some
more. And many times it can’t just come from our pulpit. And
we're in a precarious situation right here because we have no
fulltime pulpit minister and that means we have to become
teachers ourselves. And when we see people hurting
we need to be about the business of healing those hurts,
and helping those hurts.
6. (Conflict, painting in
black and white, now color is out, the struggle, and the
clash.)
— And the conflict comes
in there because what’s the best way to me is not the
necessarily the best way to others. And I have people who
come in you know and they say can’t you just paint this
in black and white? Can’t you do that? You know it’s been
black and white for years. It's been —you know this, this
is the way it is, — black and white.
And, and there’s a part of me that wants to
rise up and say, you know we can paint it in black and white,
yes — but have you ever seen color? Do you know color is out?
You know the large screen tv’s are out. You want to say I
can paint it in black and white but there's so much more.
We have a group of people who go to your
leaders and say you know black and white is what we have had
forever. Black and white is, black and white is what I grew up
with.
— And there comes the
struggle. The issue of a generation raised with color and a
generation raised to believe that black and white is
reverent and black and white is holy. And you have
a clash. You have a clash with the up and coming with
what I call their sponsors. And many times these sponsors
want to come in and say you can paint in black and white
because, you know what, we paid for the brushes. And we
paid for the canvas. If you're gonna paint, please paint
like this. And you know in many ways they are right. And
in many ways they are not right. How can we best do that?
(Important note by BMJ: This is Tom’s
lead-in to describing Saddleback Valley Community Church, a
Southern Baptist Church and a corporate organization,
subsidized by the IRS and accountable to the state and
federal government. As such: The 501 c3 Tax Exemption says —
no substantial part of the activities of which is
carrying on propaganda (cannot preach
politically incorrect sermons),or otherwise attempting,
to influence legislation, and which does not participate
in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing
of statements),any political campaign on behalf of ( or
in opposition to) any candidate for public office. They teach
you to use in your worship whatever cultural music is
present in your community: jazz, pop, rock, rhythm
& blues, etc. with choir, band, and/or orchestra
accompaniment. Their teaching methods involve intensive
indoctrination aimed at changing a person’s basic convictions
and attitudes and replacing them with a fixed and
unquestioned set of beliefs, (convictions means a fixed or
strong belief.) Free will succumbs to their ministry
process. Saddleback is a New Age - One World Community
Church.
Their Founder Rick Warren says “Your task
is to discover and remove growth restricting barriers so that
natural, normal growth can occur.” Brothers and sisters, that
means their church planters will, slowly, thru teaching
cause force to be used by our leaders, the Elders to force us
to comply to their indoctrination or leave. This act by
the Elders, the abuse of the Body of Christ against
the will of the majority is actually a spiritual
violation. If it was a physical act you could be sent
to prison. You can also refer to this Contemporary
Movement as a hostile take over.)
7. (Saddleback Valley
Community Church and a church on purpose.)
Being a church on purpose. I wanted to tell
you a lot about that — uh — Saddleback church that I told you
about. I’m only gonna tell you about one area that I saw when
I got there. They have a purpose. In fact I stole these
from them. They call them “Saddleback Sam” and
“Saddleback Sally”. When you go in “Saddleback Sam” is
standing right there — bring the lost to Christ
and “Saddleback Sally” is standing right beside her (not
him) to become more like Him. And in that when you pull
in their parking lot they have a greeter ministry that is
unparalleled with anything that I have ever seen in my
entire life. You pull in their parking lot, but first of all
you have to be shuttled into their building when you got
24,000 to 26,000 coming on Sunday morning. But when you
pull into their parking lot, they have people stopping you
asking you if you are a visitor thing that goes on your
car right then, you go to another lane. They usher you all
along.
All morning you got people smiling. They’re
directing you to a certain place. You get out of your car.
Somebody walks with you from the car to the building. As you
approach the building you see these hoards of people. I
don’t know what to call them: “crier-outs”. They are at tables
that says: Nursery, 2 year olds, 3 year olds, 3rd grade,
4th grade, 5th grade, 6th grade all the way up.
Your children, Barbie when you bring Travis and Michael
and, and Collin and Austin there you don’t have to worry
where they’re goin’. You meet the, you meet people in their
class right then.
Travis has a friend, a little friend, gives
him a coloring book and a thing that tells about Saddleback
and the, just some things to do. They, they, they develop a
bond right there. The parents meet you, they walk you,
they show you where your kids are going to class and then
they take you to class with them. They sit there, they
find out things about you. They try to take you out to
eat for that day before you leave or invite you over into
their home.
It is a church on purpose. They are
directed. They have a goal for what they’re doing and they are
goin’ at it and in 12 years they have gone from 12 members
meeting in a rented high school auditorium to last Easter
just on the internet site 46,000 people came there last Easter
in an area people told them, “it can’t be done”. Well you
know what they decided to do? They decided to rollup
their sleeves and get to work and be about the Lord’s
business. They decided to have a purpose and to go for
that purpose. I would love to tell you some more things about
what they’re doin’ in there, but anyway —.
8. (Edification,
evangelism, and glorification.)
We're gonna go, 3 things when we come
together and let me preface by saying this, you know, I am
saying that to me that our assemblies, when we come together,
should meet all of these
purposes: edification, evangelism, and
glorification. You may have leadership in a certain place
that, that your Sunday morning assembly that we’re not gonna
do one, a certain one of these. That we’re gonna direct
it in a certain way. And let me say that that’s their
prerogative to do. If the leadership decides that our
Sunday morning assemblies are goin to be directed in a certain
area, then we as followers should have a duty to follow
that. But, at the same time our leadership has to be,
they have to look at the needs of the people, the needs of the
community, and they have to look at that in a much
broader scale than what anyone person wants or needs.
Um — so when I look at those 3 things, 3
things, I’m goin’ to call number 1 edification. When we come
together is there anybody who, who would argue that we don’t
need to be reaching in. That that's what we’re doin’.
When I say edifying, encouraging or another, reaching in:
Helping Mart, praying for him with his dad, helping, uh,
Tambor with her hip and whatever else may be.
Being together, being a church, pulling
together. When we come together, isn’t that what we need to be
about? Is it? What about evangelism, reaching out? You know
in, in especially, in within the context of the Churches
of Christ we have always been about doin’ things that brings
the outside in, that attract people to the church, uh, —
we want people to come here, we want to have a service
that’s uplifting that brings people to the Body of Christ,
that talks about evangelism, glorification - reaching up.
I think if there is any of these 3 areas that maybe the
Churches of Christ as a whole have kinda gotten away
from, I believe it is glorification. I believe it is
reaching up. Sometimes we've stressed these so much that
we've left out this 3rd one. But if you want to achieve a
balance in any situation you've got to have all 3.
We will at some point go back to fill in
some blanks there. I know I’ve left some holes. But I’m going
to flip over — “bonk” — (Tom hits his microphone.) Sorry
Jeremy — ha, ha — and I’m gonna uh, uh, aw, — I know it’s
not hot in here. I can’t be hot, but Kevin told me he'd get
me some hormones if I got too hot ha — ha. I ‘m just
kidding.
9. (The body)
I just tell you. I can’t say enough, I’m
just overwhelmed at all the, at all the, all the things that,
that I wished we had time to say. Uh, — when we come together
on a Sunday morning, uh, the beautiful image of the body,
that Paul gives us is an image of the body working together,
of the hand, and the foot, the eye, the head all of these
things, these things coming together of a sense of we can
do all of this because we're working as a unit. And the thing
that he says there, he says, um “Now you are the Body of
Christ and each one of you is a part of it”. I think there is
an emphasis there on each and every one of you. You know
I think God has sent everybody in this congregation for a
purpose. He has bought us here from the east, the west, the
north, the south, and we're all here to fulfill some
mission that God has bought to us, whether it’s the right
wing, the left wing, the right brain, the left brain, the
no brain, you know it doesn’t matter. We are all here to
fulfill some purpose that God has brought.
10. (“Riding the Winds of
Change” and the builders.)
Have any of you read the book “Riding the
Winds of Change”? — It is a great book. I would, I would
suggest that you get it. It talks about 3 ways that are in
every church, three ways that are in every church. The
first one is the builders and I don’t know how much of this
I’m going to skip, so if you don’t mind if I just hold
it. It talks about the builders. In general, the builders are
the older folks in, among us. They are our parents. Let
me tell you this they are the parents of some of you in
here. They are the grandparents, they are the grandparents of
some of you in here, because I’ve hear, I’ve talked to
some of them.
Tom Brokaw calls them the greatest
generation, the builders of our society. They are the people
who have solid expectations about what worship should be.
Words like reverence and quiet, clear, peaceful, come to
mind. They value tradition. They are the fabric of our
society. He says pull them out of society and it will
fall apart. He says pull them out of our churches and we
may find out just
how lax some people have really been. He
said they are doing things that nobody even realized they were
really doing at times. — Um, cause you know they do things
that the boomers, you know you go from the builders and
you go to the boomers, they are doing things that
the boomers say “well you know couldn’t we just hire
somebody to do that?” You know, I mean, uh you really got
to maximize you time and your energy and I, you know I’m busy
at work, and I've got this and you just think, you know.
And we announce a building program. We're gonna
do, build, Vision 2000. In a little while it's gonna be
Vision 8000, Odyssey One coming to you live from the
Madison Church. But you know it’s there and the builders say
you know, we get on this, the builders say you know, we
could save some money if we — do it ourselves. That’s what
the builders say. You know what the boomers say “you
don’t want to be in any building I helped put together
you know, you know.”
That’s what it’s, it's the difference and
the, and the builders come back and they say, “you know, you
just don’t get it. You just don’t understand. It’s not about
money.” It’s about a purpose. It’s about all of these
things, coming together, and. and they have words.
11. (Uncomfortable)
They have words that, that I don’t like
sometimes. Like uncomfortable, questionable, um and you think
it doesn’t happen here: the boomers, the builders things. We
had a builder at the last deacon’s meeting, who is very,
very vocal. He’s very, very hurt. And he stood up and he said,
“you know I would like to know how many,
how many people we do have on the payroll doing things that
used to be headed up by volunteers.” Riding the winds of
change in your church. They think that way. They think
that way everywhere. We can’t just, they, they, don’t
understand why I want to hire somebody to do this and do
that because they were the builders. They built. What
we must never forget is that we are builders too. And
what they must never forget is that we are builders too.
And what they must never forget is if that, is if, is if the
building just stops with them, and they don’t teach us to
become builders, by the older teacher the younger, and
getting together that the church will die.
Because at some point every boomer has to
become a builder. We have to build things. We have to build
things that continually attract one another. But I want to
talk about one and I'll have to end there. And uh — the
word uncomfortable, the word uncomfortable. Um, it makes
me uncomfortable. First of all, let me say this. Do you
know we don’t have the right that to tell anybody that
they can’t be uncomfortable? Do you realize that?
Let me ask you this. One year ago we didn’t
have Wednesday nights. One year ago we didn’t have a praise
team in Homebuilders. I want to raise my hand. I want those of
you and don’t make me come to you. The ones of you who
have told me that are now scared to raise your hands,
just things and ways that we’ve worshipped in here a year
and a half ago, how many were uncomfortable with some of
that?
12. (Uncomfortable about
being insincere or humorous about the Lord’s Supper.)
— Look around I'm goin’ to tell you I have
to be transparent to you. There's a song that Keith sings.
And, and I want you to know where I’m cornin’ from, there’s a
song that Keith sings that I absolutely love. —I shoulda
had a glass of water before I tried this. I told somebody
Wednesday night in Bixler she was sitting beside me and I
looked over there and I said “oh, I feel sorry for you”
and she said “I'm glad I’m sitting by you” and I said “oh, I
sing loud and I sing off key you know. I just feel sorry
for you.” But uh, the song he sings, you know, have you heard
it? - “My Life is in You.” I love that song. My life, and
every time we sing it. (Tom claps, people clap) My
life (clap) is (clap) in you (clap) Lord (clap), my
strength (clap) is in (clap) you (clap) Lord. I
felt uncomfort(able) I love that song but we sang it one
time when it made me uncomfortable.
It was down here for 3rd service that we
were doing the Lord's supper. I did it really, um I heard this
really beautiful talk about the Lord’s Supper. I hear these
wonderful thoughts and we started
singing that song. And some people started
to clapping. And you know all of a sudden the beauty of that
song left me and you know what I was sittin there thinking “my
life is (clap), in you (clap) Lord (clap). Here comes the
bread (clap) now take a bite. Now there’s the juice and wash
it down now (much laughter from the audience). Was it
wrong? It was probably wrong for me to think thata way,
you know, but it kinda hit me that way all of a sudden. And I
was uncomfortable with it. You know I’m not going to
throw the baby out with the bath water and say you know
you know we don’t need to, we don’t need to do any of
that. (Tom mutters - it's indiscernible.)
But I just say that there are always
circumstances where even people like me whom I’ve told you
before I’m gonna be on the clappin side of heaven. You know
I’m gonna, if you want to look me up when we're there,
you know, if there's anybody around there acting like they’re
havin’ fun I’m gonna be right in the middle of um. That's
where to go. And, and uh, there are even things that make
us feel uncomfortable. We don’t have the right to expect that
people are not goin’ to be uncomfortable. — Um — Um, - m
- m - m — comfortable.
13. (Not scriptural,
little by little, slowly, and something behind what we were
doing, teach and teach and teach and teach.)
That’s where we’re goin’ to end. We don’t
ever need to tell somebody just get over it. Just get over it.
Sometimes I’d like to say that, you know don’t you sometimes
don’t you want to say, just get over it. But you can’t
say that. We don’t ever have the right to be insensitive. But
discomfort comes about, why? Discomfort comes about with
a idea that worship service should make us leave feeling
what ? — comfortable and you know that’s not necessarily
scriptural but, where does that go back to? But how are
we going to get over the idea that our worship services
should leave make us feeling comfortable? It's not going
to come about unless we’re teaching people about it.
Unless we are teaching people that the things we are doing
involving banners and praise teams and all these things
are to bring the lost to Christ to become more like Him. It’s
about edification to each other. It's about evangelism.
And aren’t there things we can do that
would turn a group of people in a declining membership around
that are not scriptural, that would make the word more
attractive to other people. Is it goin’ to happen over
night? No. It didn’t happen in here over night. We sang with a
jukebox for 7 months, before we ever got a song leader.
And we sang songs most of them didn’t they
involved spirited singing but that was about it. And then
you know we added songs in there. Keith did. A few people
started clapping and others did. And it was a thing that just
come about and it came little by little but you know
what, in the meantime this class grew. And you know how many
people we kept on board because we kept weeks and weeks
and 5 months of talking about it and we introduced things
slowly. And we had a purpose. And there was something behind
what we were doin’ and we taught about it. And I go back
to teach and teach and teach and teach and you know for
those of us who constantly like new things and are pushing the
edge, there are things I need to remember and this is
where I want to close.
14. (End, death, loss,
grieving, closing a door, moving in another direction.)
That the beginning of something with
somebody is always the end of something for somebody else. And
you know what end is. End is death in some cases. Ends is a
loss, end is — grieving. End is closing a door on
something and moving in another direction.
And when I start using the praise teams and
the — banners and the —, and all of this, and I’m wrapped in
that and I like it and, and you know, and, and I feel closer
to God when I do it. And, and I'm all enthused about it,
what I forget is there's the people out there who haven’t been
in on the planning and the praying and the knowing and
the experiencing it little by little and the
little grandmother that says, “you mean the services that
I grew up here for 55 years — they’re not here any more?”
— And the dad who says, “my kids, I raised um here, it just
doesn’t seem the same.” And Mary sits at the back you
know or in the middle and she says, “you know Tom,
they took Face To Face out of these books.”— And I want
to say YES, YES but look at what they
added, OUR GOD IS AN AWSOME GOD. You know
where I jus(t)want to go you know but she looks and the tears
start. And she says, “You know Tom, they sang Face To Face
when we buried Jack, — Face To Face was Jack’s favorite
song and it's not even in these books.” — And what I
ignored, or maybe not intentionally ignored but forgot was
that my wonderful mountaintop was her tragic conclusion
to something. And without the teaching, teaching, teaching,
teaching, teaching, it's not their fault. It’s not. And
you know we need to go back and we need to say and look
at her and grieve the fact you know that when we stick these
tv’s and microphones and these banners and these screens
come down. Yeah it looks a little bit different than when
Julie’s wedding was here — and when we buried Jack. It
does, but you know, if I don’t grieve the end of those
things with them, if I don’t help acknowledge the loss and
help them through that when I get back over here and
Happy-Go-Tom and we’re gonna fly around on angel’s wings over
here is so up. And where is Mary still gonna be? She’s
gonna be back over here. And if she doesn’t think that
Tom loves her enough not to get up in the pulpit and preach
her a sermon about it but to go to her house and hold her
hands and cry with her and walk her thru it and talk with her,
then she’s never going. Because when she sees how much we
love her and respect her I think she's a lot more willing
when I get up there the next time to say you know what I know
him and I know he loves the Lord.
Four little
things really quick. Really quick. We’re jus(t) gonna mention
um, on about how to deal with critics. Uhmm — . A. Affirm and
acknowledge. Affirm their right to not like what we like.
Hold their hands and say because by the same token we’ll
have to turn it around and we'll want them to affirm our
light, our right to like what they don’t like. Affirm that
decision with them. And next reflect. When they say
something to you reflect back on it what they said on it. You
know we teach each other that in marriage and counseling.
Say now is, is this what I understand you're sayin’. Let
um know you hear what they’re sayin’ and that you’re talkin’
to um that we're both on the same team. And then lastly
I’ gonna say plan’ pray and part in peace. Don’t think that
you have to stop every time a critic or somebody stops
you in the hall an’ “ wantna ya rrrrrrr”. Don’ think you
hafta settle it right then.----------------------
***********************************************************************
In 1981 Pastor Joe Meyers was driving down
a jungle road in the Ivory Coast with several African pastors
in the car. He reports:
I had recently received a couple of
cassette tapes from our denominational headquarters that ere
intended for our teenage daughter. These were recordings
of various "Christian Rock" artists. In listening to the
tapes, I was very disturbed in my own spirit...but not
trusting my own reactions alone and realizing that these
pastors whom I was traveling were very sensitive to the
spirit world (both good and evil), I decided to play the
tapes for them. The reaction I got was immediate and
verbally violent! One of the pastors asked me this
question: "Do
you mean to tell us that this kind of
music is played in your churches in America?" I answered in
the affirmative. His response was filled with disgust and
anger as he replied... "What are you doing allowing your
church people in America to call up the evil spirits with
their music?" Ibid
From the article: The Pied Piper of
Spiritualism by By Dirk Anderson Full article linked from: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison
***********************************************************************
*
****************
INTERVIEW WITH GARY McDADE OF THE
GETWELL CHURCH OF CHRIST
Dear brother Rhoades,
I appreciate your kind remarks about our
efforts to warn of the dangers of the Community Church
movement. Our prayers are with you in your struggles at
Madison. I hope these interview responses will prove
helpful.
Fraternally,
Gary McDade Getwell Church of
Christ 1511 Getwell Road Memphis, TN
38111 901-743-0464, fax: 901-743-2197 email: B36016@aol.com
An Interview with a Concerned Member of the
Madison Church of Christ Gary McDade
Dear Mr. McDade,
I am a concerned member of the Madison
Church of Christ. As you may well know, we are in a struggle
now with those that have aligned themselves with the way of
Saddleback and the "Community Church" movement. Please,
take this as a sincere thank you for your writings
and web articles in reference to these things.
We are trying through our web site at http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison
and other methods to let our members know what is going on.
One of the reasons for my email this
morning is to ask you to participate in an email interview
that could be posted to our web site for the knowledge of our
visitors.
The interview is as simple as forwarding
this email back to me intact with your answers to the below
questions. It would then be posted in its entirety at www.network54.com/forum/150389. Thank
you, for your consideration,
David Rhoades
Question
Mr. McDade would you tell us a little about
yourself and the Getwell Church of Christ?
Mr. McDade
Certainly, but first may I say that
following the reports of trouble at Madison in the Nashville
Tennessean we have been greatly concerned and the congregation
has been in our prayers.
I am a native of Memphis and have preached
here since 1982 for three congregations. I am a graduate of
Freed-Hardeman University and Southern Christian University.
In December of 1999, the elders at Getwell invited me to
consider the work with them. I was honored to
accept. Getwell is perhaps best known as the publishers
of The Spiritual Sword which enjoys a readership of about
30,000 and has subscribers in all fifty states and 87 foreign
countries. Alan E. Highers, preacher at Getwell from
about 1959 to 1969, has edited the quarterly journal
since 1989. I serve as the annual lectureship director.
We just completed the twenty-sixth annual lectureship on
"The Glory of Preaching" this past October. Getwell also hosts
one of the longest continually running radio programs in
the Mid-South and perhaps the country called "The Truth
In Love" which airs over WHBQ 56 AM each Sunday morning
at eight o'clock. I am also a weekly participant on a
cable television program called "Friend of
Truth" with Mike Hixson and John Shannon, Sr. The Getwell
Church of Christ began meeting in July of 1950 and presently
is overseen by our three elders, Ed Hagstrom, W.T.
Hardwick, and Dewey Murray.
Question
How and when did you first become aware of
the "Community Church" movement?
Mr. McDade
In August of 1995, the Harding Alumni
magazine featured an article on the Downtown Church in Memphis
that credited Evertt Huffard, professor of missions at HUGSR,
with being the impetus behind the new church. The article
presented some of the now classic indications of
the Community Church movement, i.e., hand clapping in
worship, praise team to replace a song leader,
testimonials, the use of art as expressing devotion to God
(they had created a twenty-five foot modern art mural of
the crucifixion which still dominates the interior of the
meeting place), and a casual, come-as-you-are dress code.
Subsequent to that time friends of ours
that worship with an area congregation of the Lord's people
became concerned when one of their elders stood before the
congregation and raised a copy of Rick Warren's book, The
Purpose Driven Church, and proclaimed that it would be
used as their pattern for future growth. They asked me if
I was familiar with the book. I was not. They asked me to
obtain a copy and give them my impression of it. I found it on
the best seller shelf featured in the entryway of the
Baptist bookstore. Aware that it had been suggested reading in
a local church of Christ, I was shocked to read the names
recommending it in the flyleaf:
Bill Bright, Founder, Campus Crusade for
Christ International; Jim Henry, President, Southern Baptist
Convention; Jerry Falwell, Chancellor, Liberty University;
Robert H. Schuller, Pastor, The Crystal Cathedral, Garden
Grove, California; Adrian Rogers, Pastor, Bellevue Baptist
Church, Memphis, Tennessee; Jerry Sutton, Pastor, Two
Rivers Baptist Church, Nashville, Tennessee (It is a very
sad commentary that our friends were unsuccessful in staving
off the course charted by the elders and found it
necessary to worship elsewhere).
About this time, reports of a new church in
the Cordova area, a suburb of Memphis, calling itself Cordova
Community Church began to appear in the Commercial Appeal.
Gary Ealy from the Highland Street Church of Christ and
John Mark Hicks, professor at Harding University Graduate
School of Religion, reported that this would be a different
kind of church "loosely affiliated with the church of
Christ." (Initially, they located in the Harding Academy
facilities in Cordova about a mile and a half from the
Cordova Church of Christ to the west and about a mile and
a half from the Woodland Hills Church of Christ to the east
all on the same road. They commenced a series of mail
outs as suggested in The Purpose Driven Church, chapter 11,
pp. 185-203. These mail outs also went to those who were
members of the church of Christ in that area). Currently,
they meet in a rented facility in the Arlington/Eads area.
Locally the movement had and still enjoys
the strong financial backing and support of several
congregations including Highland Street and Harding Graduate
School of Religion.
In March of 1999, I was invited to speak on
the subject during the Memphis School of Preaching
Lectureship. Material from that lecture was updated and put
into a tract entitled "The Community Church" published by
the Getwell Church of Christ. In October 2000,
"The Community Church Movement" was the theme of The
Spiritual Sword (32:1).
Question
The takeover at Madison Church of Christ
appears to have been going on secretly and covertly for at
least 7 or 8 years. Some of these people involved are not very
nice. Sometimes we feel we are dealing with root evil
rather than other Christians. Any Comment?
Mr. McDade
Sadly, Paul found himself "in perils among
false brethren" (II Cor. 11:26). His reminder always is
appropriate, and under the circumstances described is
particularly needed: "Be not overcome
of evil, but overcome evil with good" (Rom.
12:21). One significant source that contributes to the kind of
approach mentioned is Lynn Anderson's book, Navigating the
Winds of Change. It put the brotherhood on notice
regarding the methodology preferred by the "change-agents." In
the book he suggests pressing for change to the breaking
point and before the group blows apart back up a bit and
let things die down then press again. In this way a group
gradually can be ratcheted into an entirely new venue
over a period of time. What has become obvious by now is that
the change desired simply is to turn the church into a
modern denomination. It was Anderson who years ago made
the odious statement, "The church is a big, sick
denomination." Since that time his writings bear out the
point that his efforts consistently have been to transform the
church into a big, healthy denomination.
A member at Madison gave me an example of
what you mention. He said those who oppose hand clapping and
praise team presentations are being referred to as "Zenos."
Zeno was a Greek philosopher who lived in the fourth
century BC and is the founder of the Stoics. Stoics were
taught to be without passion or feeling. This offensive
labeling is an attempt to sidestep the critical issue of
HOW a worshiper's passion for God and depth of feeling for him
appropriately are to be expressed in worship. Let these
insensitive brethren show from sacred scripture where
true worship that includes passion and feeling for God is
expressed through clapping of hands and dramatic skits
presented by the so-called praise team. Paul taught that the
actions displayed in worship are subject to the spirit of
the worshiper and that God is a God of order and does
not create confusion (I Cor. 14:32-33, 40). A true and
faithful presentation of the Bible's teaching on HOW to
worship yields five avenues or channels through which the
worshiper expresses his passion and feelings toward God.
They are praying (I Thess. 5:17), singing (Eph.
5:19), preaching (II Tim. 4:2), the Lord's supper (Acts
20:7), and giving (I Cor. 16:2). These authorized avenues
of adoration are far in advance of raucous, unregulated hand
clapping and playacting that vainly struggles to convey
some axiom of actuality.
In all walks of life those effective in
promoting harmony even when disagreements arise demonstrate
the ability to disagree without becoming disagreeable. A great
biblical principle is stated by the apostle Peter on this
point: "Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion
one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful [full of
pity or 'tenderhearted' ASV], be courteous: Not rendering
evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise
blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye
should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see
good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his
lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil,
and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it" (I Pet.
3:8-11). One brother recently observed, "A man who rebels
at the simple commands of God, such as baptism, giving, the
Lord's Supper, etc., will never rise to the higher
commands, such as the love of enemies" (Howard
Winters, "Don't Lose Your Love" in the bulletin of The
Highland Church of Christ, Dalton, GA, Barry Gilreath,
Jr. editor, 2:37, p. 2).
Question
I'm not sure I'm qualified to ask all the
right questions this morning. If you would, please use this
space to inform the concerned members at Madison, and other
concerned members around the country, with any message
that will help us in reference to the take over of the
"Community Churches."
Mr. McDade
We now know the source/sources from which
erring brethren are drawing their pattern for this movement.
Recently a Baptist paper in Dallas interviewed the highly
popular writer Max Lucado who is a preacher from San
Antonio, Texas. In the review, among other
compromising statements, he said he would make a good
Baptist. Lucado told the reporter that he had
been invited to come to Willow Creek Community Church in
South Barrington, Illinois in 1988 but was advised to
stay put for the time being. Willow Creek Community Church
with its founder Bill Hybels is the current model others
such as Rick Warren from Saddleback in Orange
County, California are imitating. The obvious motivation
for this imitation is the rapid growth of Willow Creek
Community Church. However, people ought to be aware that
Willow
Creek and Saddleback are both located at
the epicenter of areas experiencing a population explosion.
Rick Warren states this as the reason he chose the Saddleback
area (p. 34). In addition, both Hybels and Warren state
in their writings that they believe they were and are
being directly led by God (cf. e.g., p. 26 of Warren's
book). Such a view is false doctrine (II Pet. 1:3; Jude
3; Rev. 22:18-19). Now that these sources have been exposed
brethren may apply Romans 16:17-18 in resolving the
issue: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which
cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine
which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are
such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and
by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the
simple."
Question
Among all the concerns we worry about, one
in particular is troubling. According to one of your articles,
magazines have published information about the embracing of
the "Community Church" movement by many of the Christian
Colleges. Before we send our children off to school,
are there any specific questions that we could ask of
those college presidents? I'm talking about questions
they can't dodge, that would let us know the truth of whether
their school embraces this?
Mr. McDade
First, endeavor to establish the commitment
to and conviction about the Bible being the inspired,
infallible, all-sufficient will of God because leaders in the
Community Church movement believe they are being led
directly by God in addition to his will as revealed in the
Bible. The question must not only include the vital
points of the plenary (full), verbal (word for
word) inspiration of the Bible as is taught in II Timothy
3:16-17, but the point of the Bible constituting
the complete will of God must be addressed today. The
Crux of the Matter written by three professors from ACU
serves as an example of why this point must be covered. These
professors state that they believe they are continuing to
be "guided into all truth" (cf. pp.164, 193; cf. also
the October 2001 issue of The Spiritual Sword, 33:1,
which provides a critical review of this book). If so,
the Bible does not represent "all truth." DLU in Nashville has
as a Bible teacher a man who preached in Memphis before
being hired that published an article stating, "God
communicates primarily through his word but not
exclusively through his word. God does speak to us directly."
I challenged him on this point and to my knowledge he has
never changed his position. (The article was titled "God
Is Alive" by Scott McDowell. I will be happy to furnish a copy
to anyone who requests it). The Bible is being rejected
as a pattern on the basis that God currently is guiding
selected men into unrevealed areas of truth. A prayerful,
diligent study of Hebrews 8:5 and 9:23 is needed today.
Additionally, Michael Moss at DLU is on record as holding the
view that the Bible was not written to us but was
preserved for us. Therefore, a pointed question would be:
"Do you and your Bible faculty believe and teach that the
Bible is written to us today and is the fully and
verbally inspired word of God which is authoritative,
all-sufficient, and complete?" I kindly emphasize: It is
not enough to ask, "Do you believe the Bible is the
inspired word of God?"
Second, "Do you and your Bible faculty
believe that the name 'church of Christ' and the teaching
about the church as it appears in the New Testament represents
the exclusive body of the saved on earth today?" Again,
the question needs to be asked so as to disallow
the opportunity to dodge or hedge. For example, if the
question was "Do you believe that all the saved are in
the body of Christ?" A "yes" answer may mean that at
leastcertain denominational churches may harbor saved
people in them because the view is widespread that holds that
all the denominations together constitute the body of
Christ. A study of I Corinthians 12:13 and Ephesians
1:22-23, 4:4, and 5:23 should prove helpful in this
connection. Although the Bible says, "The churches of
Christ salute you" an emphasis exists to be embarrassed by and
to get away from the name church of Christ (cf. Mark
8:38). See, for example, Flavil Yeakley's comments in The
Christian Chronicle, 53:7 (March 2000), p. 18. He is a Bible
professor at Harding University in Searcy, Arkansas.
Third, ask about the worship services your
child will be engaged in on campus and on the Lord's day. If
he or she cannot worship "in spirit and in truth,"a serious
danger exits (Heb. 10:26). Therefore, a pointed question
in this regard would be "Do you allow hand clapping, skits,
praise teams, instrumental music-type sounds created
vocally, and testifying in worship and
devotional services?"
Fourth, are the members on your board of
directors/advisory board/board of regents/and trustees sound
in the faith? How would they answer the aforementioned
questions? Are any of them known to have made compromises
with denominationalism? Are their names and addresses
publicly posted and accessible, for example, on the school's
web site, in addition to appearing in the college
catalogue? Would you hire a Bible teacher who attends a
Community Church? Would you dismiss a Bible teacher who
attends a Community Church?
Finally, the duty and right to ask
questions about those "tutors and governors"entrusted with the
nurturing and developing of our precious children must not be
relinquished without impunity (Gal. 4:2). Only those
schools as serious about the spiritual welfare of our children
as are we should be considered deserving of our respect
and support. A Bible college or university should deepen
the faith and strengthen the resolve of students under its
influence to live a faithful Christian life. It should
exalt Christ and the church of Christ (Eph. 3:21).
Conclusion
Christ died in order to bring the church
into existence (Eph. 5:25). It represents the strait and
narrow way that leads to eternal life (Matt. 7:13-14; Acts
9:1-2). The wise man knew that a way could exist that had
the potential to seem like the right way yet lead to
destruction. He wrote, "There is a way which seemeth
right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of
death" (Prov. 14:12). Jeremiah knew that man inherently
does not have within him the ability to successfully
direct his own way to God. He wrote, "O LORD, I know that the
way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that
walketh to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23). We need now more
than ever to redouble our resolve to "seek the old paths"
contained in the Bible, for it is "the good way" (Jer.
6:16).
******************************************************************
"Force is the last resort of every false
religion. At first it tries attraction, as the king of Babylon
tried the power of music and outward show. If these
attractions, invented by men inspired by Satan, failed to
make men worship the image, the hungry flames of the furnace
were ready to consume them. So it will be now." Ellen Go
White, Signs
of the Times, May 6, 1897
From the article: The Pied Piper of
Spiritualism By Dirk Anderson Full article linked from: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com/madison
***********************************************************************
*
In response to a preliminary copy of a
"Covenant of Membership" that was drafted by Buck Dozier
The Covenant of Membership
BucDozier’s Preliminary
‘Covenant of Membership”
with
the Madison church
family
BuckDozier and the other Madison Church of
Christ Elders have aligned themselves with certain “outside
influences”. These influences have helped the Elders
“LORD”over the membership unscriptural beliefs,
teachings, and doctlheis.these actions Buck, certain
other Elders, certain teachers, and certain members have
divided the congregation into two different groups of
differing beliefs. To learn more of our possible future
and what may be in store for us please read on.
Onesuch outside influence is tlSeaddleback
Valley Community Church in California.
The philosophy of this
Corporation/Organization seems to have convinced Buck and the
majority of the Elders to the point of ignoring the Word of
God that our future salvation and the solution to
Madison’s dwindling membership and contributions depends
on following the example of this worldly church founded
by Rick Warren in 1980. Much of the power gained
b^addleback i$hru the COVENANTS signed with its members.
Rick Warren useRockMusic and little or no
reference to thmattractive notions of sin to attract new
members. These new members are then required to sign a
COVENANT that commits them to tithing plus participation
in a small group, a lay ministry, and a missions
outreach. New members who study f&kUdleback in their
series of high-commitment purpose-driven classes are required
to sign further covenants before they can progress to the
next classes. These members become “pastors”and then are sent
out as “church planters”into existing churches like
Madison Church of Christ to gradually change the church
from a traditional church founded by Jesus Christ into
a “contemporary” church like the one founded by Rick
Warren. This guarantees Saddleback an income from members
and they in turn attend and bring in others to attend the
Saddleback ‘Conferences”and “Seminars” which in turn brings in
wealth to the church/Rick Warren. Please verily what I
have just told you by getting on the Internet and go
toSaddleback’s web site:
http://www.purposedriven.com
and browse around as much as you can to learn about their
ways. You must look deeply
and in detail. They do not talk about SIN
or REPENTANCE. Their worship is centered on all kinds of MUSIC
in the contemporary and cultural sense. There is
aHtoxjts Music.
To verily about the covenants go to the
specdfidbpage below:
http://www.purposedriven.com/pdc/saddleback_20th/saddleback_20th.htm
The Madison Elders have sent Frank
Scofidddleback to leam from them. Tom Haddon has been
Saddleback and has taught the Homebuilders Class about
their methods. Tom has prophesied that the church as we
know it will be efraermptetelv and our songbooks with their old songs will be
taken away. A tape of Tom’s teachings on February 25,
2001 has been transcribed and studied in ddptfch division was
taught at Madison on February 25, 2001 by Tfefaaddon.
Larry Sullivan who was brought to Madison
by BiIMzier and the Elders promotes a book titled, leading
Congregational Changg. Larry
is also the Assistant Director of the Pepperdine annual
Seminar of the same nfflrasading
Congregational Changg.
The above book promoted by Larry Sullivan
is reviewed by Rick Wa&add(leback Valley Community Church
founder) at the Straus Institute website. Mr. Sullivan
of course is directlyionnected with Straus Institute.
Now with all of that said, I ask you; if
you allow Madison Church of Christ to continue on the present
course, do you think that there may be, possibly, just
possibly, a COVENANT in your future somewhere at some time?
We have to agree that this covenant has
not been given to us-------yet! But you must
admit how worldly BuclDoziei; the Elder is
in his view of what he perceives his authority to be, whether
this was his idea alone or in concert with others.
What does God’s Word say about what we
refer to as covenants?
Matthew
5:37‘But let your communication
be, Yea, ydd^y, nay: for whatsoever is more than theseometh of
evil.” (Jesus’ words)
Titus
1:9 ‘Holding fast the faithful
word as bteath been taught, that he may be able by sound
doctrine both to exhort and to
convincegthffiLsayers.’’g;ainsayers => those
who oppose it)
II
Corinthians 2:17 ‘For we are not as many, which corrupt the
word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight
ofGspbak we in Christ.”
I
Peter 5:12 ‘But above all things,
my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by earth,
neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; andi^umay;
les^e fall into condemnation.”
IICorinthians
9:7 ‘Every man according as
Ipairposethin his heart^o let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for Gdxsketh a
cheerful giver.”
Galatians
5:1 “Stand fast therefore in the
liberty wherewith Chhiath made us free, and be not entangled
with the yoke of bondage.”
Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ teaches
us that we should say “yes” or “no”, but not vow or take an
oath! Christians should not make covenants that require vows,
oaths, or sacred promises. When we speak we are to speak
as sincere men and women of God, whose word is honorable,
so we do not bind ourselves in any way with vows or oaths
or sacred promises. Drotsign or make any covenants,
oaths, promises, or vows in any Christian context. Jesus
Christ came to deal with the human heart. The Law of
Moses allowed oaths as safeguards against the dishonesty
ofmen under the Law, who had not experienced the new
birth into the new creation of Jesus Christ. He, Jesus Christ,
forbids oaths and vows altogether in the New Testament.
By doing this He accomplished the real purpose of God’s
Law.
We must compare thmdisputable actions of
each Elder with Scriptures and determine if what Buck was
working on was what an Elder should consider as teaching and
leading and watching over the flock. Seems like an Elder
should, “Abstain from all appearance of evil.” I
The ssalonians 5:22 Why don’t you ask brothdDozier about this? See
what his personal opinion is.
This is simply what I have found in the
Word of God regarding things that are perceived as covenants.
Bobby M. Johnson, member Madison Church of
Christ
*********************
David Lipscomb
on Church Authority
Whenever a man or set of men . . . assume
to exercise authority in a church by virtue of some official
appointment, or to assert, they have rights and authority as
officers above others and assume to exert their rights
without the full consent and approval of the members, they
should be resisted even to the disruption of the body.
They are lording it over God’s heritage, and are exalting
their authority at the expense of the authority of Jesus
Christ and the Holy Spirit. One man, in the assertion and
maintenance of the Divine will, has as much authority as
another, more than a thousand ordained ones in disregard of
that will. The only reason we have seen from Scripture
for appointing certain individuals to special work was to see
that neglected work was performed. The seven at Jerusalem
were appointed to see that the Grecian widows, neglected
in the daily ministration were fed. Titus was sent to set in
order the things "wanting," and to place Elders in their
proper work.
Whenever a man in the church of Christ
claims authority or exercises power merely on official ground,
he is essentially a pope and claims the prerogatives of papacy
as fully as does he of Rome. He may be a smaller one, his
sphere of action may be more limited, but the principle is the
same. All the evils of the papacy arise out of the claim
of the Pope and his council to decide questions by virtue of
official position.
- Gospel Advocate, 1877, Page 232
A Study of the Madison Church of Christ
Elders and Their Actions
(10/7/01)
Before this study can begin, certain
criterion must be set to see if our determinations are based
upon judgment or simply statements of facts and comparison to
Scripture/the Word of God.
There are two areas that Elders must be
concerned with in leading the congregation: (1) Spiritual
Matters of Faith and (2
iPhysical
Matters of this Earth.
Spiritual
Matters of Faith -
These are matters that are not open for the Elders to vote on.
They are simply matters determined by God and also bjtfrBuDdur Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His
Apostles. The Word of God is forever settled in heaven. Psalms 7/9:ff9No thing. not even the smallest iota shall
pass from God’s law until all is fulfilled. Matthew
5:18 The Elders are not to add to
nor take away from the words written in the book of the
Word of GoRevelations
22:18-1.1No Elder is to follow the lead of another
Elder for any re as iCorinthians
4:6. These things never change.
Hebrews
13: 7-9 Elders teach, lead, and watch over the flock
only where the Word of God exists without changing it or
voting on it.
Physical
Matters of This Earth -
These are all other matters such as: when to hold a gospel
meeting, howto arrange and where to place the Sunday School
classes to best fit the needs of the congregation and the
age groups, when to paint and lay carpet as long as no
major expenditures are required, who to call to repair the air
conditioning, etc. Many ofthese can and should be
delegated to the Deacons. Elders can decide how and
where missionaries are to be sent and the details
connected with this. How we should help in disaster
relief efforts. Elders should find and evaluate who our next
minister should be and communicate all facts to the
congregation. The Elders should vote on things
that support the physical parameters ofteaching and
leading the flock, the congregation, the Church of Christ
at Madison.
The concept otidgment must be understood. Judgment is the capacity to
appraise discriminate, and to compare, and so arrive at a
sound evaluation; discernment. It is the assertion of
something believed; idea; opinion. So we must not judge
anything that will effect anyone’s soul in a way as to
cause that person to stumble or to becoiie lost. Corinthians
10:32 Romans 16:178c Romans
14:21 Actions of the Elders that cause others
to stumble or become lost must be pointed out by admonishing,
reproving, and rebukingPhilmvians
2:12-15 We can only consider the
real facts ofthe actions ofthe Elders that are known in
to be in contradiction to the Word of God. If they have led
the congregation in a way so as to cause someone to
stumble or become lost then they are no longer acting in
the capacity of an Elder, Shepherd, or an Overseer and they
must be evaluated by comparing their actions to God’s
Word. Even Elders must submit to God’s
will. Deuteronomy
7:9
The Elders are exerting authority where
they have rMatthew
28:18 Thereis no mention of Elders
in the verse or in the cont e^mbrews
13:17, 7. or
24tead carefully
IPeter
5:1-5
The Elders have turned away from sound
doctrine. They have turned to the doctrine of men teaching and
following the patternSbfddleback Valley Community
Church, allowing women to teach and lead over young men
who are baptized, allowing unscriptural music and ‘holy
entertainment”, and specifically speaking where the
Bible is silent.2f Timothy
4:2-4.
The Elders have divided the church over
the above chdmjgesd on the churchl
Corinthians
1:10, Matthew
20:25-28Acts 20:28-31
Elders are under the same authority of
Jesus Christ and God as are all of us in the church. They have
been warned. Now is the time for us to reject them andidatiKBg
to do with them.Tito 3:8-11. They are to be rebuked before all, publicly
(the congregation). Timothy
5:19-29
To know how God feels and thinks about his
children, please read cajfefelhi/fl/i 10:21-22& Jeremiah 23:1-4
You may read of an example of how to ‘let
another take” the place of a leader in the congregation, how
Peter and the remaining Apostles and the disciples replaced
Judas after he killed himse lftfcA 1:12-26
KJB ‘These all continued
with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the
womeand Maty the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
’’Acts
1:15 KJB “And in those days
Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said,
(the number of names together were about an hundred and
twenty,)” Acts
1:16 KJB. “And they appointed
two, Joseph callBdmabas, who was sumamed Justus, and
Matthias.’Acts
1:23 KJB AND THEN THE 120*VOTED. “And they gave
forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was
numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts
1:26 KJB.
*Voted = gave forth their lots » Lot = Any
of a group of nearly identical objects used in making a
determination, choice, or selection.
The Apostles alone did not choose Matthias
just Themselves . The Madison Church of Christ Elders chose
among themselves alone (just the Elders) in recent years.
The last Elders were chosen that way. The entire congregation
recently has had no choice or voice at all. The voice
that was expressed fell upon deaf ears. That is
not scriptural.
Bobby M. Johnson, member Madison Church of
Christ
TO THE ELDERS OF
683 CHURCHES OF CHRIST IN THE CHANNEL 5 VIEWING AREA
From : TheConcemedMembers of the Madison
Church of Christ November 19, 2001
To: The Elders of683 Churches ofChrisTine
Channel 5 Viewing Area
Reference: Letter you received from a
majority ofthe Elders dated April 13,2001 and signed by John
Broadway
Dear Brothers;
We are sorry we have to write to you
today.
This letter is in reference to a letter
our Elders wrote to you on April 13, 2001 concerning a news
story on News Channel 5 about the controversy at the Madison
Church of Christ.
In that letter our Elders told you that
"The controversy seems to be over-reaction
to change. The main things we have done in the 10:30 service
are introduce more upbeat praise songs, give less time to the
sermon, and give greater emphasis to the Lord's Supper.
This embraces a more contemporary format, of course, but we
don't feel that it departs from scriptural worship."
We now know that what they told you was
not the true nature ofthe controversy. A majority ofthe Elders
that approved that letter to you knew or should have knowp
that
1) One ofthe church's own ministers ,
JinHinkle, was quoted in the "Madison Marcher" in reference to
the new, contemporary service "We will not be still, we
will not be quiet."
2) On February 25tIHTddDn in his "Homebuilders" Sunday
school class, was giving specific instructions on how to
transition the churches members over to the saddleback
Community Church" [Calvinist] programs of "Holy
Entertainment" He talked ofthe well laid plans not known
by everyone.
3) By the time you received our Elder's
letter, clapping, praise teams, and the raising ofhands
had already been introduced at the second service at
the Madison Church of Christ.
4) A "Worship Leader" was now in charge ofthe services, not a
minister.
5) The
children's Sunday school had already been changed to one that
had more "entertainment", and less bible learning. A young
female church minister had already been assigned to teach
young baptized males. By the time you received this letter many godly
members had left the church.
It is for these reasons that we contend
that you were not told even the essence ofthe truth about the
controversy.
As members ofthe Madison Church of Christ,
we take the unusual step of "retracting" the letter you
received from a majority of our Elders on April 13, 2001.
We do not take our responsibility for the
actions of these men lightly. If we had not been asleep, we
would have never let these men lord over this congregation.
Please Pray For Us All ConcemedMembers
72 348 4.5.25. 990
