Holy Spirit Coming Down to Him Like A Dove Did the Holy Spirit DESCEND LIKE a dove descends, or did He descend LOOKING LIKE a dove? An e-mail visitor makes some interesting comments.
There are several "creation" accounts in Genesis. Genesis 1 is the useless one created or "cast down" by the Sumerians which fits the B.C. 4000 time frame. Isaiah 45 says that the Lord (yhwh) the only God (elohim) said that He did not create or cast down the above-water places. The first EVE speaks of Semiramis the Mother Goddess of Babylon. She is mother or "spirit" in pagan triads.
Jesus was baptized 30 years after he came in the FLESH. SPIRIT is a figurative or parable word to define how God the Father puts His words into the mouth of the prophets and for the last time into the mouth of Jesus. Jesus said "my WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE" and so the "Word is the SEED of the kingdom" and all life.
THE DOVE AS PARABLE.
The dove, the chosen symbol of this deified queen, is commonly represented with an olive branch in her mouth (Fig 25),
When the goddess was thus represented as the Dove with the olive branch, there can be no doubt that the symbol had partly reference to the story of the flood; but there was much more in the symbol than a mere memorial of that great event. "A branch," as has been already proved, was the symbol of the deified son, and when the deified mother was represented as a Dove, what could the meaning of this representation be but just to identify her with the Spirit of all grace, that brooded, dove-like, over the deep at the creation; for in the sculptures at Nineveh, as we have seen, the wings and tail of the dove represented the third member of the idolatrous Assyrian trinity. In confirmation of this view, it must be stated that the Assyrian "Juno, Hislop 23
I will tell you what I believe and why it is a MYSTERY which Jesus hid from those who are not true disciples or learners. Your statements will be in red, my comments will be in black and other quotations will be in blue.
Dear Friends,
Excuse me please, let me attract your attention my interesting observation about the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, when Jesus Christ was baptized. (Please see the attached file Image_6). There is in the Luke 3:22 we see the next:
"And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him" (Luke 3:22).
There is the Holy Scripture said, that the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove, not in a dove shape. Everywhere in the Holy Scripture we see only "like a dove", and nowhere "in a dove shape". (Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, John 1:32).
It is possible to descend in any shape like a dove, but there is in a dove shape is only in a dove shape. And the phrase "like a dove" is meaning, that it is not a dove. For example, " like a human" is meaning, that it is not human.
Holy Spirit (there is no article) is poured out, falls upon, descends or other words is never a PERSON.
Job 15:13 That thou turnest THY SPIRIT against God,
and lettest such WORDS go out of thy mouth?
Is. 34:16 Seek ye out of the BOOK of the Lord, and READ:
no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate:
for my MOUTH it hath COMMANDED,
and his SPIRIT it hath GATHERED them.
Is. 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord;
My SPIRIT that is upon thee,
and my WORDS which I have put in thy MOUTH,
shall not depart out of thy MOUTH,
nor out of the MOUTH of thy seed,
nor out of the MOUTH of thy seed’s seed,
SAITH the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.Ef-fundo to pour out, pour forth, shed, spread abroad “cultus in verbis,” Quint. 3, 8, 58.—
“spiritum,” Tac. A. 2, 70.— [Breath]
A. In gen.: “effudi vobis omnia, quae sentiebam,” i. e. have freely imparted, Cic. de Or. 1, 34 fin.; cf. id. Att. 16, 7, 5; id. Fl. 17, 41; Quint. 2, 2, 10; 10, 3, 17; Val. Fl. 7, 434: “procellam eloquentiae
Is. 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Is. 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven,
and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth,
and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Is. 55:11 So shall my WORD be that goeth forth [“spiritus,] out of my MOUTH:
it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Verbum, whence eirō and rhēma, what is spoken or said; language, discourse, conversation, Logos: the Regulative principle opposite to Rhetoric, singing, playing instruments or any personal opinions or experiences.
rhēma , atos, to, (erō) A.that which is said or spoken, word, sayinSpīrĭtus , a breathing or gentle blowing of air, a breath,
Opposite. ergon, Th.5.111; opp. to alēthes, Pl.Phd.102b word for word
rhētr-a , A.verbal agreement, bargain, covenant,
John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
4487. rhema, hray´-mah; from 4483;
4483. rJe÷w rheo, hreh´-o, for certain tenses of which a prolonged form
ejre÷w ereo, er-eh´-o is used; and both as alternate for 2036 perhaps akin (or identical) with 4482 (through the idea of pouring forth); to utter, i.e. speak or say: — command, make, say, speak (of). Compare 3004.
WHEN PERSONIFIED spiritum Phoebus [Apollon-Abaddon] mihi, Phoebus artem Carminis dedit, poetic spirit or inspiration, Hor
Used to occŭpo to lay hold of; hence, to take possession of, seize, occupy any thing 2. To fall upon, attack one with any thing tyrannidem,” tyrannis , “tyrannidem occupare,”I can see your point but in English DESCENDING like a dove or descending LIKE A DOVE or in a dove's shape would be understood to mean the same thing..
That is true, but humans or angels don't DESCEND like a dove descends nor do they LOOK LIKE a dove which is descending. We know that God's Spirit or Mind is not a real DOVE which had real PAGAN meaning especially among the Babylonians. Therefore, much of the Old Testament was put in permanent form only after Israel sinned by musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. Stephen and others say that God "turned them over to worship the starry host" rather than the CREATOR and COMMANDER of the starry hosts.
Because the Israelites in the wilderness were now going into Canaan without God's protection, what God gave them as a promised land would now become a killing field and a turning to Baalism.
After the period of the Judges, the elders would demand a king like the nations. God understood that they wanted to worship like the nations but promised that they would fail. When they failed, the sentence of captivity and death imposed at Mount Sinai would be carried out. It was understood that the kings would be used by God to bring about their removal into Assyria and Babylon.
When they wanted to live and worship like the "nations" or goyim this was primarily the worship like the Babylonians. Therefore, Moses was caused to write a true version of the myths and legends which were the "bible" of the Babylonians. There, the "god" was a goddess and the "daughter" was the ruler and the dove was her symbol of a matriarchial religion. Zeus was the enemy of the Biblical God and he was seen as an eagle and his son, Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon was a hawk. The DOVE versus the HAWK is still our symbol of PEACE versus WAR.
For instance, when the Romans came to destroy Jerusalem, their battle standard bore the eagle as a sign that their gods were greater than Jehovah. Even when the Old Testament was written, the eagle was the mark of Zeus. And during the INTERTESTAMENT period the "abomination of desolation" was Zeus and Dionysus worship in the Jerusalem temple. This was the Abomination of Desolation. The BRANCH of the terrible ones in Isaiah 25 is defined as "singing with musical accompaniment." Therefore, we see MUSIC in conflict with God's WORD even in the garden of Eden.
To understand the DOVE it is important to understand that Scripture uses HUNTERS of other animals as the enemy. He also uses the FOWL as those who PLUCK UP the Seed of the Kingdom. Jesus identifies these as DEMONS working for the DEVIL. What better image of a HOLY Spirit than a literal dove. Winged men are often the preferred image of the pagan LOGOS or Word bringer from their "gods."
In The Birds By Aristophanes,
PITHETAERUS: But the strongest proof of all is that Zeus, who now reigns, is represented as standing with an eagle on his head as a symbol of his royalty his daughter has an owl, and Phoebus [Apollo], as his servant, has a hawk.
EUELPIDES: By Demeter, the point is well taken. But what are all these birds doing in heaven?
PITHETAERUS: When anyone sacrifices and, according to the rite, offers the entrails to the gods, these birds take their share before Zeus. Formerly men always swore by the birds and never by the gods.
EUELPIDES: And even now Lampon swears by the goose whenever he wishes to deceive someone.
PITHETAERUS: Thus it is clear that you were once great and sacred, but now you are looked upon as slaves, as fools, as Maneses stones are thrown at you as at raving madmen, even in holy places. A crowd of bird-catchers sets snares, traps, limed twigs and nets of all sorts for you you are caught, you are sold in heaps and the buyers finger you over to be certain you are fat.
Again, if they would but serve you up simply roasted but they rasp cheese into a mixture of oil, vinegar and laserwort, to which another sweet and greasy sauce is added, and the whole is poured scalding hot over your back, for all the world as if you were diseased meat.
Clement of Alexandria informs us of the heresies faced by early Christians.
This is Jupiter the good, the prophetic, the patron of hospitality, the protector of suppliants, the benign, the author of omens, the avenger of wrongs; rather the unjust, the violater of right and of law, the impious, the inhuman, the violent, the seducer, the adulterer, the amatory.
But perhaps when he was such he was a man; but now these fables seem to have grown old on our hands. Zeus is no longer a serpent, a swan, nor an eagle, nor a licentious man; the god no longer flies, nor loves boys, nor kisses, nor offers violence, although there are still many beautiful women, more comely than Leda, more blooming than Semele, and boys of better looks and manners than the Phrygian herdsman. Where is now that eagle? where now that swan? where now is Zeus himself? He has grown old with his feathers; for as yet he does not repent of his amatory exploits, nor is he taught continence. The fable is exposed before you: Leda is dead, the swan is dead. Seek your Jupiter. Ransack not heaven, but earth.
"The Cretan, in whose country he was buried, will show him to you, -- I mean Callimachus, in his hymns:--
- For they tomb, O king,
- The Cretans fashioned (p. 181).
For Zeus is dead, be not distressed, as Leda is dead, and the swan, and the eagle, and the libertine, and the serpent. And now even the superstitious seem, although reluctantly, yet truly, to have come to understand their error respecting the Gods.
"For not from an ancient oak, nor from a rock,
But from men, is thy descent."You remember that Paul quotes that "All Cretans are liars?" Here is why they lied:
"Your modes of acting are contrary to reason, for you make a pompous appearance in public, but hide your teaching in corners... The tombs of Olypian Zeus is shown among you, though some one says that the Cretans are liars (probably Callimachus) (Athensgoras, Ante-Nicene, Vol. II).
"Those who came after adopted the worship (of Zeus) without examination.
- The Cretans always lie; for they, O king,
- Have built a tomb to thee who art not dead." (p. 145)
Though you believe, O Callimachus, in the nativity of Zeus, you do not believe in his sepulchre; and whilst you think to obscure the truth, you in fact proclaim him dead, even to those who are ignorant; and if you see the cave, you call to mind the childbirth of Rhea; but when you see the coffin, you throw a shadow over his death, not considering that the unbegotten God alone is eternal.
For either the tales told by the multitude and the poets about the gods are unworthy of credit,
Again, the EAGLE or HAWK represents the self-seaking people who would EAT the doves. In that sense they are parasites.
And Jesus warned about the sectarian HYPOCRITES, a word in Greek resources often used with the word PHARISEE.
Hupokritês one who answers: I. interpreter or expounder, one who plays a part on the stage, actor [Peter outlawed private interpretation or "further expounding" which would deny that the Dove represented ALL truth resting on Jesus alone.]
The musicians who turned poems or psalms into songs were the LESBIAN singers. Before them, poems were to be recited:
Rhapsôid-os , ho, reciter of Epic poems, sts. applied to the bard who recited his own poem, professional reciters, especially of the poems of Homer, Hdt.5.67, Pl.Ion 530c, etc.:
As rhetoric it applies to the kuôn, ironically, of the Sphinx who chanted her riddle, S.OT391. (Prob. from rhaptô, aoidê; [below] Hes.Fr. 265 speaks of himself and Homer as en nearois humnois rhapsantes aoidên
Paul insisted that we SPEAK one to another and that our singing AND melody be in the heart. This warns that external "musical singing" created spiritual anxiety and it was proof that one was guilty of heresy meaning to TAKE YOU AWAY for his own USES.
The "musicians" were the "dogs" of Paul's warning. They were musical homosexuals. They were named because they made strange, animal sounds in their "performances." Some of the "new style music" performs animal sounds as a "musical band."
I. a dog or bitch, Hom., etc.; most commonly of hounds, II. as a word of reproach, to denote shamelessness or audacity in women, rashness, recklessness in men, 2. at Athens a nickname of the Cynics, Arist., Anth.
In tragedy such as the "singing and dancing" the clergy tried to get Jesus to perform was a homosexual "initiation." This is especially important because the Jewish clergy expected and hoped that the Messiah would be Dionysus whom they still worshipped as the "Abomination of desolation" still going on in the musical festivals. Click to see the Feast of Tabernacles where Jesus would not go up early to PERFORM.
Of the kuon or dogs: III. the Tragedy apply the term to the ministers of the gods; the eagle is Dios ptênos kuôn Aesch.; the griffins Zênos akrageis kunes id=Aesch.; the Bacchantes Lussês k. Eur., etc.
A once "Christian" college sent out a "missionary team" dressed as griffins!
You remember also that RIDING ON FINE HORSES imported by Solomon was forbidden because it was a sign of human power and pride. That is why Jesus would come
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation [3467 Yasha]; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zec.9:9
Jesus or Joshua in Zechariah is Jehovah- Yasha or Jehovah Saves.
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:10
As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. Zech 9:11
I could go on and on to show that the DOVE was a visual 'parable' and it was, like all parables, intended by Jesus to hide spiritual truth from the professional, Jewish clergy.
God could use the DOVE to land on the BRANCH to rule over the "abominable branch" of Isaiah. The way to send us a PARABLE message, which the scholars would never grasp, was to have the dove rest as the Spirit of the Father God confirming a SON rather than a daughter. I have covered this in some detail with some pictures of the DOVE almost always associated with the femine or feminist "mother."
http://www.piney.com/HsLikeADove.html
However, I believe the Bible shows that the Spirit descended as or LIKE A DOVE descends by hoovering or fluttering over the Head of Jesus in Whom God dwelled fully. In addition, John saw this "dove" and I believe that it descended LIKE a dove because it looked like a dove BODILY. The word "bodily" seems to mean that it was a REAL, physical dove or appeared to be so. I know of no reason to not believe that it was not a real dove even as the dove was sent out by Noah to BRING BACK a message.
From your comments on Zechariah we see that Messiah will be the BRANCH. He will sit and rule on ONE throne as both king and priests. Then Zechariah says "there will be peace between them BOTH." When Stephen saw Jesus at the RIGHT HAND he SPOKE to God but said "Lord Jesus." Both God and His Arm, his Christ meaning His knowledge and wisdom or His right had sit on the one throne where the RIGHT HAND belongs.
In Isaiah 11 we will see the SEVEN SPIRITS rest on Messiah as the BRANCH. These are symbolized by a BIRD resting on a BRANCH. This is important because the DOVE is symbolic of a Righteous God. The Eagle is the symbol of Zeus who is the ABOMINABLE BRANCH who opposes God in paganism.
Now, we know that Messiah would not be a LITERAL ARM or a LITERAL Green branch sprouting out of Jesse. But a literal PERSON does not LAND on either a MAN or the BRANCH of a TREE. If you keep the LIKE A DOVE meaning THAT WHICH ONE MIGHT SEE, then you understand two major teachings.
WITH NOAH AFTER THE FLOOD.
First, the Dove is probably the rock pigeon. In the Ark the dove was sent out to faithfully bring back a message. The DOVE represented the SEVEN SPIRITS of God. This, in turn, was like the seven LAMPS which rested on the one branch of the Menorah. ALL of the seven spirits relate to forms of wisdom and knowledge.
Noah first sent out the RAVEN to bring back a message.
And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth. Gen 8:7
The raven has a mystical meaning of prophecy:
Arab (h6148) aw-rab'; a prim. root; to braid, i. e. intermix; techn. to traffic (as if by barter); also to give or be security (as a kind of exchange): - engage, (inter-) meddle (with), mingle (self), mortgage, occupy, give pledges, be (-come, put in) surety, undertake.
Areb (h6149) aw-rabe'; a prim. root [rather identical with 6148 through the idea of close association]; to be agreeable: - be pleasant (-ing), take pleasure in, be sweet.
Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel. Pr.20:17
In Romans 15 Paul outlawed PLEASURING ONE ANOTHER in the assembly so that we can glorify God with one MIND and one VOICE as we speak "that which is written."
Remember that the "Jews" who controlled Jerusalem claimed to be children of Abraham. Jesus did not deny this but denied that they were ISRAELITES. It is clear that they were ARABS whose living had been gained in Babylonia (Iraq) by robbing caravans and changing money. As Kenites or Cainites they had largely displaced the true Israelites even as they have today.
Then Noah sent forth a dove or rock pigeon which comes home and delivers the messages and is not a parasite.
Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; Gen 8:8
But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark; for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. Gen 8:9
Second, the pagan religions worshipped a MOTHER as goddess. One had to worship her DAUGHTER. In Babylon and other places a literal dove is pictured resting ON the mother goddess. That means a matriarchal idea of God. Instead, by having the image of a literal dove resting on the head and the FATHER calling the child His SON most paganism is destroyed if you believe the Bible.
If a man with WINGS rested on Messiah that would inforce the pagan concept of winged messengers. For instance, Hermes or Mercury were winged and they were called THE MESSENGERS OF GOD. The god NIKE is winged and gives rise to the Nicolatains or CLERGY which dominates the LAITY.
ELIJAH AT MOUNT SINAI
When Elijah had defeated the singing, dancing, instrument playing and self-abusing prophets of Baal and of Asherah under Jezebel, he fled for his life because when the WORDS of God defeats the pompous pagans, they will murder you.
And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word [Dabar orLogos] of the Lord came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah? 1 Kings 19:9
And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. 1 Kings 19:10
And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by,
and a great and strong wind rent the mountains,
and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord;
........but the Lord was not in the wind:and after the wind an earthquake;
........ but the Lord was not in the earthquake: 1 Kings 19:11And after the earthquake a fire;
........ but the Lord was not in the fire:and after the fire a still small voice. 1 Kings 19:12
"Unlike the pagan deities, Yahweh was not in any of the forces of nature but in a real apart. He is experienced in the scarcely perceptible timbre of a tiny breeze in the paradox of a voiced silence." (Armstrong, Karen, A History of God, p. 27)
The kingdom of God is not a big tree, but a bit of leaven:
I am against bigness and greatness in all their forms, and with the invisible molecular moral forces that work from individual to individual, stealing in through the crannies of the world like so many soft rootlets, or like the capillary oozing of water, and yet rending the hardest monuments of man's pride, if you give them time. The bigger the unit you deal with, the hollower, the more brutal, the more mendacious is the life displayed. So I am against all big organizations as such, national ones first and foremost; against all big successes and big results; and in favor of the eternal forces of truth which always work in the individual and immediately unsuccessful way, under-dogs always, till history comes, after they are long dead, and puts them on top. -- You need take no notice of these ebullitions of spleen, which are probably quite unintelligible to anyone but myself.
WILLIAM JAMES, letter to Mrs. Henry Whitman, June 7, 1899.--The Letters of William James, ed. Henry James, vol. 2, p. 90 (1926)
The FIRE at Pentecost would BURN UP the chaff but the Dove would be the quiet, gentle voice of God. When people SHOUT and pontificate they CANNOT be speaking for God.
Vladimir: Why two thousands years all artists in the episode of baptism of Jesus Christ are drawing the dove, and there are in the many theologize works we see the words "in a dove shape"?
Please see the pictures of well-known artist, and you will see the dove. And there is in all temple you will see the dove.
"And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him" (Luke 3:22), not "in a dove shape".
It might be idolatry to attempt to draw the Holy Spirit of God. We know that millions of dollars are made by drawing, painting or sculpting IMAGES of the Holy Spirit. The IDOLS of the pagan trinity are also popular and are actually worshipped. If the Spirit of God is LIKE a wind or like a dove we should be warned NEVER to try to make even mental pictures of God's Spirit like His twin or triplet. That has always been heresy.
I believe that they always understood the Bible to say that Jesus and John actually SAW "somehting" which they described as a DOVE descending. I don't think that anyone has enough information to paint what happened.
Some times the Bible speaks of having wings LIKE a dove or mourning LIKE a dove when it is figurative. For instance, there is an old ballad of a man in prison who sings: "Oh, If I had the wings/ of an angel/ I would fly to the one / that I love."
And I said, Oh that I had wings like a dove for then would I fly away, and be at rest. Ps.55:6
We can understand that IF he had wings LIKE A DOVE he would not LOOK LIKE a dove. He would still look like a man but he would have powerful wings. However, the LIGHTING on Jesus means "resting." Maybe, we can get some comfort out of the fact that Jesus died to REMOVE the burdens and the burden laders and give us REST. Rest, means "stop whatever you are doing" trying to work up a WORSHIP FEELING.
Like a crane or a swallow, so did I chatter: I did mourn as a dove: mine eyes fail with looking upward: O Lord, I am oppressed; undertake for me. Is.38:14
However, the word BODILY means that John saw a LITERAL, or bodily shape of a dove. It looked like a dove. It descended like a dove. And it abode or "made a dwelling" on Jesus like a dove. From everything John could understand, it was a literal dove.
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: Mt.3:16KJV
Paul in First Corinthians 2 says that:
The Holy Spirit
........ Is to God
What our spirit
........ Is to usPaul then continues to say that in order to understand the Holy Spirit the Mind of Christ must be dwelling within us. In John 14, Jesus promised ANOTHER comforter. Another means different only in that it is a FULLER Comforter. Then, Jesus says I will come to you. When the Spirit Lord appeared to Paul He said "I am Jesus of Nazareth." He was the same persecuted person but in an invisible or spirit form.
I don't know how a man with wings descends but God knew that I would understand how a DOVE lit on Jesus. I think that it lit on His head because the SPIRITS promised in Isaiah 11 which would REST on Messiah LIKE a BRANCH are all related to Divine or supernatural forms of knowledge which we can read when we are baptized and receive A holy spirit or as in 1 Peter 3:21 A clear conscience or consiousness which means a co-perception. When our spirit is washed clean and God gives us A new, holy spirit we can let the SPIRIT abide in our HEAD or mind or spirit. IF we have the Spirit or Mind of Christ we will just give up trying to build WORSHIP HOUSES or doing ACTS of worship with our hands or body and let HIM give us REST. If we don't REST--like the dove resting on Jesus--it means that we DO NOT have A holy spirit and just keep on doing legalistic ACTS.
The Bible says that God is NOT worshipped in houses made with human hands. Nor is God worshipped by the works of human hands. I don't think that the Mind or Spirit of Christ could say it any clearer. However, earthly thinkers insist on spending millions of dollars on HOUSES so that they can worship with their OWN HANDS. Jesus went further and said that God IS SPIRIT. The word HOLY is not a name but it means pure. Pure soap does not have anything in it that is not soap. Therefore, Holy is like the english word WHOLLY. God is nothing BUT Spirit. The same passage in Isaiah 11 says that when the SPIRITS rest on Jesus like the candles or lights rest on the BRANCH of the MENORAH or candlestick in the Holy Place, God will not JUDGE by what He HEARS or by what He SEES. The DOVE would give us divine permission to SETTLE DOWN ON JESUS because He had done all of the WORK.
Now, God AS Spirit dwells in OUR spirit or mind. This is why Jesus said that God does not even SEEK worship which is NOT in the NEW PLACE of the human spirit. The ACT of worship is the word Paul used to define worship as GIVING HEED to the Words of Christ. Paul said that as a believer he now worshipped IN THE SPIRIT. John was AT REST and IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's Day.
The dove is gentle and is the symbol of bringing God's message to us. John would have been surprised if a man-sized man with wings descended and settled down on top of Jesus. Whether it was real or not we know that it must have LOOKED like a dove or the Bible would just confuse us.
Don't forget, that Jesus spoke to the Jewis clergy in parables [Matthew 13]. He did this so that they WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND what He was saying. Isaiah 48 shows that if they KNEW what God had in store for us they would find a way to make themselves seem like a prophet and then charge us a high price for it. But, Jesus makes fools of the merchants and the blind: IF we cannot worship in the PLACE of a house built by human hands AND we cannot worship by the WORKS of our hands then the ONLY thing left is to worship God in the new PLACE of our spirit which is made into A holy place by God when we ask God to do it in baptism (1 Peter 3:21).
You will remember that no singer, musician or speaker could ever enter into the holy place of the temple which was a carnal type of the body or church of Christ. IF they intruded into the temple even to clean out the garbage they would have been put to death. The DOVE doesn't attack you and eat your flesh.
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: Mk.1:10KJV
The Spirit is pictured as fluttering like a FLAME. The seven spirits or lamps or lights "grew out" of the branch of the Menorah.
AND there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Isaiah 11:1
And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; Isaiah 11:2
And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: Isaiah 11:3
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. Is.11:4
I believe that the different accounts is commentary. Jesus saw the Spirit which appeared to John LIKE A DOVE and it was descending upon Him. That is different from DESCENDING like a dove. In other versions:
The moment Jesus came up out of the water, he saw the heavens open and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descending on him, Mk 1:10LIV
And the Holy Ghost descended
........in a bodily shape
........like a dove upon him,
and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Lu.3:22KJVThis does not mean that the voice proved that God the Father was speaking. The voice was to validate Jesus as the SON of the father and not the DAUGHTER of the mother of the gods.
Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove ...
This was the heavenly portent by which John the Baptist recognized the Messiah (John 1:33). Appropriately, the dove was a clean creature under the Mosaic law, acceptable in the holy sacrifices as an offering to God, an emblem in all ages of peace, gentleness, and innocence, a monogamous creature, possessing no gall, and used as a messenger. G. Gordon Brownville, Symbols of the Holy Spirit (Old Tappan, New Jersey: Fleming H. Revell Company, 1945), p. 19.
3:22 {Descended} (katabenai). Same construction as the preceding infinitive. {The Holy Ghost} (to pneuma to hagion). The Holy Spirit. #Mr 1:10 has merely the Spirit (to pneuma) while #Mt 3:16 has the Spirit of God (pneuma qeou). {In a bodily form} (swmatikwi eidei). Alone in Luke who has also "as a dove" (hws peristeran) like Matthew and Mark. this probably means that the Baptist saw the vision that looked like a dove. Nothing is gained by denying the fact or possibility of the vision that looked like a dove. God manifests his power as he will. The symbolism of the dove for the Holy Spirit is intelligible. We are not to understand that this was the beginning of the Incarnation of Christ as the Cerinthian Gnostics held. But this fresh influx of the Holy Spirit may have deepened the Messianic consciousness of Jesus and certainly revealed him to the Baptist as God's Son. {And a voice came out of heaven} (kai fwnen ex ouranou genesqai). Same construction of infinitive with accusative of general reference.
Gill The Dove was not a PICTURE of the Holy Spirit as a third person but a MARK or proof that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God. I cannot picture a HUMAN FORM resting on the branch like a bird.
Ver. 22. And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape,.... In a corporeal form, in a visible manner, and was seen with bodily eyes, at least by John the administrator; to whom this was a signal of his being the Messiah, and a fresh confirmation of it: like a dove upon him; either in the form of a dove, or this corporeal form, whatever it was, descended and hovered on him as a dove does:
At Pentecost in the upper room the SPIRIT
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Ac.2:3
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Ac.2:4
These were not literal TONGUES of the Holy Spirit "person" but they were LIKE FIRE as another symbol of God's Word.
Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. Is.5:24
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Je.23:29
The evidence of being filled with the Spirit of Christ means that they were filled with the words of Christ which WERE spirit and life (John 6:63).
Remember the SPIRITS to rest on Messiah in Isaiah 11 were spirits OF various forms of Divine knowledge in spirit words.
He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31
And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. John 3:32
He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. John 3:33
For he whom God hath sent
........speaketh the words of God:
........for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. John 3:34Christ is the Wisdom and Knowledge of God just as to Paul in 1 Cor 2 the Holy Spirit is to God what our spirit is to us. And that, says Paul, means that we have the MIND of Christ.
Why does the SON speak only what the FATHER within thinks? It is because almost all views of the trinity sees the FATHER as the THOUGHT and the SON as the WORDS of the self-same God.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63
A BODILY shape seems to make it clear that it looked like the BODY of a dove and did not look like an angel or a man. This would teach the idea of the pagan trinity. By picturing the Spirit of God like a dove we cannot ever think that the Holy Spirit or Mind of Christ is ANOTHER PERSON of a family of gods.
The body is the Greek is
Somatikos (g4984) so-mat-ee-kos'; from 4983; corporeal or physical: - bodily.
Therefore, is seems to me that Luke is saying that what was SEEN was visible to the human eye because it was PHYSICAL. The bodily shape was LIKE A DOVE. I believe that if the Spirit descended in a bodily shape LIKE an angel then Luke would have said that. Because the VISIBLE and AUDIBLE demonstration by God was NOT in a human form we are not to think of the Holy Spirit as LIKE a "person" or "people" as Jesus Who was indwelled by God's Spirit was LIKE a person.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2:8
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (g4984) Col 2:9
The trinity was a pagan idea from beginning to end. Bible historians note that the trinity was a Greek and other pagan concept as a PHILOSOPHICAL CONCEPT before anyone ever thought about the trinity as three persons. It was not until 1942 that anyone dared to say that the Godhead was a family of Gods or a tribe or kinfolk.
To prove this, Paul continues to show that the fulness of the Godhead or all that we think of as being GOD dwelled fully in the man Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus discounted His flesh by fooling the experts about "eating the flesh and drinking the blood" of a physical god.
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63
Again, the dove speaks of the Spirit as God's Words which bring Spirit into our humanspirit and produce life. This may not be true but I like to think on these things in MY spirit.
In another example:
The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. John 12:29
Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. John 12:30
Now, John would know the difference between seeing the BODILY form of an angel or a MAN with wings and seeing a PHYSICAL "something" which he said was like a dove.
And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit
descending from heaven
........ like a dove,
........ and it abode upon him. Jn.1:32And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Ac.2:3
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,
Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. John 1:33The purpose was not to prove that the Spirit of Christ was in the FORM of a man but:
And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. John 1:34
I watch the doves descend around my farm house and nothing descends like a dove. If I saw something DESCEND LIKE a dove I would say that it WAS a dove.
People understood the idea of an angel with wings: if John had seen a winged man wouldn't he say that he was DESCENDING like a man or was BODILY like a man? The dove is the Greek:
Peristera (g4058) per-is-ter-ah'; of uncert. der.; a pigeon: - dove, pigeon.
And Jesus went into the temple of God [the courts: not the holy places], and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, Mt.21:12
This was not just a history lesson but a SIGN or a parable. Because you cannot worship in the old PLACES of temples with people BUYING and SEELING and even cheating the poor by changing their money and selling them doves, Jesus CAST OUT the people who made a profit out of free religion.
The word CAST OUT is the Greek:
Ekballo (h1544) ek-bal'-lo; from 1537 and 906; to eject (lit. or fig.): - bring forth, cast (forth, out), drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).
Ballo (g906) bal'-lo; a prim. verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense): - arise, cast (out), dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Comp. 4496.
Jesus also CAST OUT the singers and instrument players. The image is that of casting out DUNG. This is because the singers, musicians and priests were involved with the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent animals with the dung, blood, burning flesh and helpless cries:
And when Jesus came into the rulers house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise, Mt.9:23
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. Matt 9:24
But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. Matt 9:25
When Lucifer or Satan was CAST AS PROFANE out of heaven the word also means to "play the flute, pollute or prostitute." The professionals around the Greek sacrifice altars were called PARASITES. Doves are not parasites.
God's house or the church or body of Christ is the OIKIA which is both the building and the congregation. Only those things which EDIFY are allowed in the house or church of God: the singers, speakers, musicians, money takers and counters of the "towers" are CAST OUT as one casts out dung. God in Christ is the RULER or Archon of the house. In that house God performs spiritual healing and He refuses to heal our spirits until He has CAST OUT the performing parasites. That EJECTS the Scribes (book and sermon composers), the Pharisees (selling sermons and prayers to take the widow's money) and the sectarian HYPOCRITES. This includes ANY ONE who would presume to PERFORM an act of worship in the Body of Christ.
In the little, poor churches Jesus invites and receives only those who can affort [literally or mentally] to give a dove or pigeon. Many are called but few are chosen.
And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons. Lu.2:24
When Jesus had the pair of doves offered, the Holy Spirit was UPON Simeon. He was waiting for the CONSOLATION or Comforter [there is just one] and he said:
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lords Christ. Luke 2:26
Christ is God: Christ the Wisdom and Knowledge and Word of God. The Arm, Hand, Comforter, Intercessor and ALL that God is to the human understanding. I have a body, soul and spirit but I am not triplets. My spirit is my mind or inner man. My spirit is the nature or disposition of my Mind. In order that humans can grasp that which can never be grasped by the majority, Paul compares God's SPIRIT to our spirit. That, he says, is the MIND of Christ.
Your attitude should be the kind that was shown us by Jesus Christ, Phil 2:5LIV
who, though he was God, did not demand and cling to his rights as God, Phil 2:6
but laid aside his mighty power and glory,
taking the disguise of a slave and becoming like men. Phil 2:7And he humbled himself even further, going so far as actually to die a criminal's death on a cross. Phil 2:8
Yet it was because of this that God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name which is above every other name, Phil 2:9
that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, Phil 2:10
and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:11
Christ would return TO THE RIGHT of the throne of God from whence He came as the RIGHT ARM or RIGHT HAND or power of God. He would sit as RULER and PRIEST on one throne and Zechariah says there will be harmony between them BOTH. When Stephen looked into heaven he SAW GOD but said "Lord Jesus." If we reject the IMAGING or PROJECTING of God into our physical world as Jesus Christ who contained the full Deity or "housed" Him then we have lost it all. If we could ascend to God or cause Christ to DESCEND in our worship services, Jesus the Christ of God, the Wisdom and Knowledge and Word of God died in vain.
The Gnostics [who control modern worship] hold that Jesus was not the manifestation of CHRIST IN THE FLESH. Some even teaching that God and Lucifer fought and God slipped Jesus through to Mary as a "vial of light."
Therefore, the DOVE in a bodily form just means that it was not an image: It was a real, corporeal DOVE fluttering down. And it LIT on Jesus and abode or "settled down" on Him.
The dove which descended is the same dove word which they saw physically being offered as SACRIFICES FOR THE POOR in the temple. Didn't Jesus come to give His Spirit or His Word (John 6:63) only to the poor?
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. John 12:36
David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly. Mk.12:37
The Lord or Adown in Psalm 110:1 is Jehovah in verse 2. Jehovah sends his strength out of Zion to RULE.
The Lord [Jehovah] shall send the rod [BRANCH] of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Psa 110:2
Again, I like to think of the Dove telling the rich people that God will only be discerned after THEY have A holy spirit like the humble and poor:
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. John 7:29
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. John 7:30
This is a first look at this question. I will continue to research it. It is important to see the DOVE as the symbol of God who aids and comforts His people and gives them rest. This is in contrast to the EAGLE who tears and claws and eats the flesh of God's humble and often helpless lambs.
12.27.19. 628
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