The New Birth John 3:5

No, that is not the way the game is played. YOU find someone prior to Zwingli in 1525 who believe what WALT warps. Walt, you can NEVER grasp what EVERYONE always grasped by just READING the words of God and NOT calling Jesus Christ a liar.

Justin Martyr Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism. [A.D. 151]).

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making.

As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true,
        and undertake to be able to live accordingly,
        are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting,
         for the remission of their sins that are past,
         we praying and fasting with them.

Then they are brought by us where there is water,
        and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.

For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit,
they then receive the washing with water.

For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all.

And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks:

"Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet,

I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

Dead Sea version: probably the same as the eunuch read and requested baptism: 13. your multiplied sacrifices, says YHWH,        I am sated with holocausts of rams and the fat of fatlings, and in the blood 14. of bulls and lambs and goats I have no delight. (12)       When you come to see my face to make this request 15. from your hands treading my courtyard. (13)       Do not continue to bring empty gifts, Incense is an abomination 16. to me, new moon and sabbaths, calling of reading meetings, I am not able to endure even the sacred assembly. (14) Your new moons and seasonal feasts 17. my soul hates, they are a burden to me, I am tired of bearing them. (15) And when you spread your hands I will hide my eyes 18. from you, also when you multiply prayer I will not listen, your hands are full of blood. [+and your fingers+] [Aramaic] 19. [+of iniquity+] (16) Wash and make yourselves clean and turn away the evil of your habitual practices from before my eyes, stop doing evil. (17) Learn Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Rachac (h7364) raw-khats'; a prim. root; to lave (the whole or a part of a thing): - bathe (self), wash (self). Le.14:9 But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean.

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance,

but may become the children of choice and knowledge,
and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed,

there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe;
he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone.

For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness.

And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings.

And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

Barnabas: Chapter XI.-Baptism and the Cross Prefigured in the Old Testament.

Let us further inquire whether the Lord took any care to foreshadow the water [of baptism] and the cross. Concerning the water, indeed, it is written, in reference to the Israelites,

that they should not receive that baptism which leads to the remission of sins,
but should procure (build another) another for themselves.

The prophet therefore declares, "Be astonished, O heaven, and let the earth tremble (still more) at this, because this people hath committed two great evils:

they have forsaken Me, a living fountain,
and have hewn out for themselves broken cisterns.

Cod. Sin. has, "have dug a pit of death." See Jer. ii. 12, 13.

"If the Apostles taught your doctrine of baptism, then we are faced with the amazing fact that all of the ancient Christians perverted that doctrine, and perverted it in exactly the same way everywhere throughout the Roman empire, and without so much as a whimper of protest from anyone. I find that hard to believe.

If you haven read the Holy Spirit - Word connection you may want to go there before looking at Nicodemus. Click Here. The whole Christian system is destroyed by failure to acknowledge that the word "spirit" may speak of a Being but only when it speaks of God who is undivided.

Light In the Darkness (John 3:1-21) Rubel Shelly and John York

Because the sermon is not coherent we will take a few samplers.

We began this morning to dissect the sermon of Rubel Shelly and John York. Sorry, but sermonizing about self just dries me up to the bone. Therefore, we have posted some comments about the new birth. I am not sure what is being said in this sermon but the statement that Jesus put the emphasis on the SPIRIT more than on baptism does not show up in my Bible.

Furthermore, the claim that Jesus appropriated the lifted up serpent to Himself seems to go along with the idea that Jesus as the Rock and Water in the wilderness was picked up from a Jewish Legend.

John York: I'm reminded of our study of the Psalms a couple of years ago and those categories Walter Brueggemann and John Mark Hicks gave us of orientation, disorientation, and new orientation. In John's Gospel,

Jesus often seems to be about the business of disorientation. 
John constantly depicts Jesus in conversations that are full of confusion and double meanings. That's what is going on here, with Nicodemus. 

Unfortunately, the process of translation has created even more confusion for us modern readers of this text 

because Jesus intentionally uses a word that can have two radically different meanings, and our translations have traditionally chosen the meaning that Nicodemus understands. 

As far as I can discover Jesus only intentionally confuses people who have denied His Word (Matthew 13). Those included were the Scribes and Pharisees or hypocrites Jeus identified as rhetoricians, singers and instrument players.

Schizophrenia: "a mental disorder characterized by a separation between the thought processes and the emotions, a distortion of reality accompanied by delusions and hallucinations, a fragmentation of the personality, motor disturbances, loss of basic intellectual functions."

If you listen to any of the new "Praise Craze" or imposing instrumental "contemporary" music you will understand that the deliberate goal is to disconnect the emotions from the thought process so that nothing can be learned.

Furthermore, the spiritual schizophrenia which happens at Sunday morning "happy hour" is believed to be more spiritual than simply obeying Christ and reading His words.

This is the basis of all paganism. Paganism understood that music and feminine or effeminate "performers" were the most powerful tools of creating schizophrenia or dissociation. Even the "sweetist" musical worship teams with the closest "harmony" succeed (among some) because of the underlying dissonance. This is why God, in Numbers 10:7, made music for the assembly unlawful and why Paul put the "melody" in the heart.

The open-ended or multiple choice question format is essentially a values clarification exercise. Some elements of it are designed to create cognitive dissonance, a condition where one's feelings, values, beliefs and behaviors become disoriented and mixed up. Cognitive dissonance is a primary tool of dialectics, and is often applied to education or psychology for the purpose of changing one's belief system. This moves one away from absolute Truth to subjective realities.

The Promise Keepers developmental "journey" includes times of "separation from the past, INITIATION to something new, TRANSITION from one place to the other, and temporary confusion" (p. 8). These stages are a good description of the process of COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. This raises a number of questions about the intentions and purposes of the activities in the study guide.

If the exercises were designed to solidify men in the absolutes of scriptural Truth there would be no need to go through this orchestrated process of psychological disruption. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." (I Cor. 14:33)

Walter Brueggermann is a minister of the UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST.

The New Birth: Maybe John missed the Matthew part:

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? Mt 13:10

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Mt 13:11

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Mt 13: 12

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Mt 13: 13

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: Mt 13: 14

For this peoples heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Mt 13: 15

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. Mt 13: 16

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: Mt 13: 34

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Mt 13: 35

See the foundation of postmodernism, post Biblical objective truth. "Most also call for dissociation as a preface to the religious experience. Dissociation is the loss of conscious awareness of the real world. "Specifically, postmodern religionists call for people to leave all rational categories behind before ascending to the godhead. Thus, they see one thing as the supreme barrier to deep religion: Reason, and its handmaiden, truth. The Death of Truth John York and Rubel Shelly: Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God."  Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above." Nicodemus said to him, "How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit" (John 3:1-5).  FIRST STATEMENT OF A CLEAR CONVERSATION: John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. FIRST LOGICAL QUESTION OF A CLEAR CONVERSATION: John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him,          1. How can a man be born when he is old?         2. can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born Nicodemus is not confused: he understands born AGAIN to be born a SECOND time.  It seems that he was logically a literate man. g1208 Deuteros as a second time (in time, place or rank), afterward, again, second. Mark 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.  Latin Itero to do a second time I. to do a thing a second time, to repeat to be restored to life by way of death BORN ANOTHEN IS BORN DEUTEROS The simple question Nicodemus asked of Jesus "Can he enter a second time."  Jesus didn't correct him and God is Christ is not foolish.  Jesus defined HOW one coud be born a SECOND TIME. SECOND CLARIFICATION OF A CLEAR CONVERSATION: Yes, [1] a MAN who is old can be born [2] a second time BORN ANOTHEN IS BORN A DEUTEROS. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,          Except a man  [full grown man already born ONCE]         be born of water and of the Spirit,                 he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Born FROM ABOVE would not put you into the Kingdom of Christ or the Church of Christ.  BORN ANOTHEN IS BORN A DEUTEROS iS BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT

Rubel Shelly: That's a familiar text to both of us and surely to most of the people listening to us today. It affirms something we both believe about baptism. 

Unlike some who relegate baptism to the fringe of Christian faith and practice, you and I would insist that it is an important and necessary part of the faith-response God wants people on the path to faith to make to the gospel.

If the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (cf. 1 Cor.15:1ff) and if our salvation is bound up in that story, the confession of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection under the symbol of immersion in water can hardly be inconsequential! 

But I suspect there is even more that we are supposed to understand from this text that is a bit, shall we say, "scary"? 

1. The form or type or symbol was the FLOOD, the RED SEA and the first principles of the Gospel.
2. A TUPOS is a pattern capable of being imitated.
3. When we obey a FORM or ANTI-TUPOS of that only then are we FREE FROM sin.
4. Baptism saves us because in obeying that PATTERN we are asking for A good conscience which is A holy spirit.
5. That which is absolutely necessary for the remission of sins IS NOT JUST A SYMBOL.

Paul called this gospel the PROTOS or prototype or pattern. The gospel for US, since we are not Jesus Christ, began to be unfolded in Mark 1 where the MOST IMPORTANT point was shown by John's and the diciples of Jesus BAPRISM for or in order to the remission of sins.

That sets up the confusion that runs through the rest of their conversation. Nicodemus is trying to figure out how to re-enter his mother's womb, while Jesus is trying to convey the necessity of being born "from above." 

Jesus has in mind a baptism that is "from above" and that leads to the indwelling of the Spirit. Only this could produce a transformation of life from God - from above.

In order to read BLACK text on BROWN paper such as the Old Testament, Paul told the Jews in Corinth (2 Corinthians 3) that they had to return which means to be converted to Christ.  That gives them the POWER to be a Disciple of Christ which He limited inclusively and therefore exclusively.

Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, 
        baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
       Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
        and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.  Matt. 28:20

Only as a Disciple (only) of Christ (only) are we transformed but not by a miracle:

Rom. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world:
        but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,
        that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
2Cor. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, 
        are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Truthfully, Jesus spoke of being born again of WATER and of the SPIRIT. This is baptism after faith and repentance FOR the remission of sins. Then God gives us A holy spirit (Acts 2:38) or A clear conscience (1 Peter 3:21)

Jesus Christ sets up two FORM to show that without BAPTISM which means CONVERSION you CANNOT, SHALL NOT enter the kingdom. Luke will record the new Christians being BAPTIZED or born of Water and also being CONVERTED.

JESUS CHRIST ILLUSTRATED THE MEANING OF BAPTISM as CONVERSION as The New Birth:

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, Matthew 18:2

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted,and become (be born) AS little children,

 ye SHALL NOT enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3

If you cannot enter the kingdom without a supernatural birth, then it is all in God's hands: a Calvinist could not say it better.

JESUS TOLD NICODEMUS THE SAME THING as BEING BORN AGAIN as The New Birth:

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mothers womb, and be born? John 3:4

 

The question is how can Nicodemus a grown man be BORN AGAIN. The new birth does not involve the physical birth. Therefore, to be born again is to be born of water which involves water baptism: we are born OUT of the water.

 

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man (already born of the flesh)

 

be born of WATER (H20) and of the SPIRIT,

he CANNOT ENTER into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Jesus has connected being CONVERTED to BEING BORN of water and the Spirit.

Therefore Jesus lays a stumbling block for those who would deny that baptism is necessary because it calls God a liar and marks one as a traitor.

If you can be saved before Baptism then you can be saved before conversion.

Rubel Shelly and John York: Ironically, in this text it is not water that Jesus emphasizes; the clear.

John York diminishes WATER because Jesus said:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be   born of water and   of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

That which is   born of the flesh is flesh;   and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body   but as an appeal to God for A clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Pet 3:21

Rubel Shelly John York: To be Spirit-born - born from above - is to experience the radical act of God's grace empowering us for life.

Otherwise, one is left with human effort even in the act of water baptism It becomes just another line item on Nicodemus' "to-do list."

These men are looking for and claiming DIRECT OPERATIONS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. However, when one is born again they have a NEW SPIRIT. This is their spirit made holy by God. Paul defined it as A clear conscience. This word means a new consiousness: a co-perception. This does not cause us to MINIMIZE THE BIBLE and slander God for His inability to protect it: it means that the veil is removed so that we hear our new HOLY SPIRIT giving even more heed to the Words which are Spirit and Life (John 6:63).

Don't believe people who reject the idea that God in Christ has the right to command TO DO things.

Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, 
        but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 

Isaiah 48 says that God kept things secret to keep spiritual truth out of the hands of the mercinaries or those who claimed that they had the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Listen again:

This was in connection with identifying the terminal musical idolatry at Mount Sinai as a pattern for Christian worship and community. Psalm 106 was the one which seems to be filled with orientation, disorientation, and the new orientation. This so clear that it is not a parable. Rather, Psalm 106 is a recapitulation of the fall from Grace at Mount Sinain when Israel rose up to play in musical idolatry. This was the sermon where John York and Rubel Shelly claim that both the Israelites and Corinthians were BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. That may be why there is a need to make Jesus emphasize the baptism of the Spirit (which He didn't).

This was also the event John York and Rubel Shelly failed to notice as they swept through the Exodus model for Christians. We have reviewed the Psalm 106 "patternism" here.

Elsewhere, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit is defined by the Greek Word to mean "mental disposition" which, of course, is holy. Holy is not a mane but an adjective describing the disposition or quality of a spirit -- eve our spirit.

First, you must remember that the interpretation of the Bible is often based upon what we already believe. Being reactionary against Catholicism, early protestant's "faith only" caused them to deny Christ's words because they, if interpreted consistent with the rest of the Bible, seem to imply that we have to use our minds or do something to accept the free gift of Christ.

Second, Calvinism demands that some are destined to heaven and others to hell. God, they say, made that decision to learn us or burn us long before we were born -- "babies not an inch long are burning in hell right now," some say. Therefore, to presume to believe and be baptized as a condition of entering into the kingdom of Christ is, to them, like a person 5'2" applying for a place on a professional basketball team. They would say: "If you ain't got it you ain't got it." Faith to them is given to them by God to prove to them and the watching world that they are one of the select few honored by God from eternity.

Third, the passage is taken out of context.

Remember, that Nicodemus had already been born physically and Jesus said, and I paraphrase, "No, I am not talking about the physical birth when you were born of your mother's womb.

You must be born again of water and the Spirit (Word or Truth) -- a new mind.

To be what God wants us to be it is important to be cleansed or purged of the "old man" who is considered dead when baptized; and to be renewed in the spirit of the mind. In Paul's imagery, our bodies are dead and God lives in our mind or spirit.

Therefore, to understand the new birth, I will begin to note that Nicodemus had already been born once. Then we will "bird walk" a bit and look at some other passages which show the Word - Spirit connection:

THERE was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: John 3:1

The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him,
Rabbi, we know that

thou art a teacher come from God:
for no man can do these miracles that thou doest,
except God be with him. John 3:2

There, you see, Nicodemus already believed in Jesus as having God with Him. Therefore, Jesus recognized this faith but did not say: "Because you believe, you are already in the kingdom of God." He did not say, "Nicodemus, enter in because you are one of the select few."

The context of Nicodemus' statement is his confession that HE, JESUS, must be supernaturally empowered.

Jesus did not begin by promising "the gift of the Spirit" as some form of mental breakdown to prove that the power was in the believer.

Rather, Jesus promised that the kingdom would be seen or discerned only after he, Nicodemus who was already a man and a believer, was born again at two levels.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see (with astounded eyes) the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Strange and beyond imagination, Jesus Christ the Spirit informed Paul that he must ARISE and BE baptized to WASH AWAY his sins which is Calling on the Name of the Lord.  

A "man" is an already-existing person such as Nicodemus. He has been born once into the physical realm but not into the spiritual realm where he could see. However, this physical person must be born again of both water and spirit

Born "again" is from the Greek:

Anothen (g509) an'-o-then; from 507; from above; by anal. from the first; by impl. anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top. (from the opposite direction)

IF ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Col.3:1

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. Col.3:2

Setting our affection on Sister Singers in violation of Paul's direct command is not seeking those things above. Nicodemus was thinking about things of the flesh:

Nicodemus continued to think like modern interpreters:

Nicodemus saith unto him,

How can a man be born when he is old?
can he enter the second time into his mothers womb, and be born? John 3:4

Nicodemus understood that he had been born physically and that Jesus was saying that he needed to be born in a physical sense a second time.

No, Jesus said, a man (already existing) must be (future) born of water a second time. To be born means that he must be overwhelmed and come out of the water. In the same way, he must be equipped with the Spirit or Word:

Rubel shelly and John York: That sets up the confusion that runs through the rest of their conversation. Nicodemus is trying to figure out how to re-enter his mother's womb, while Jesus is trying to convey the necessity of being born "from above." Jesus has in mind a baptism that is "from above" and that leads to the indwelling of the Spirit. Only this could produce a transformation of life from God - from above.

Now let me add one more piece of confusion to the story, because those of us in an audience 2000 years later need to remember the

two more immediate audiences of this text. Remember that this story is being read first by John's Christian audience.

I don't think John's audience could have read these words about being born of water and Spirit without thinking about their own baptismal experiences.

But it was the empowerment of the Spirit that made their baptism "from above."

One can be saved by baptism because that is how to receive A good conscience or A holy spirit by asking for it (1 Peter 3:21).  The people being baptized understood that baptism was FOR the remission of sins.

The Holy Spirit is to God what our spirit is to God: the Holy Spirit is the mind of Christ. Therefore, before God can dwell in our spirits by faith, He must cleans it by the water and the word. This gives us A holy spirit and it does not mean the indwelling of 1/3 of the Godhead.

To enter into the kingdom, is from the Greek word:

Eiserchomai (g1525) ice-er'-khom-ahee; from 1519 and 2064; to enter (lit. or fig.): arise, come (in, into), enter into, go in through

This word is connected to eis (into or for) as the process and end-result: One enters into to make the action complete. For instance, the two Marys went into the tomb:

And entering (g1525) into (g1519 eis) the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. Mark 16:5

The Marys entered into a literal tomb, we enter into a type of that tomb where we begin to follow the risen Christ.

Into or for or eis does not mean "because of." Rather, its first meaning is "indicating the point reached or entered." The women entered the tomb as a process. When they were inside they were "in" the tomb.

This carries the same meaning as Acts 2:38: one is baptized into the remission of sins where Christ bestows life "in the tomb"-

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ

for (eis, into) the remission of sins, and
ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

In verse 6, Jesus said:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is
born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Spirit is not an indwelling person or 1/3 of God:

Pneuma (g4151) pnyoo'-mah; from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. human the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, doemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Comp. 5590.

If this is the Holy Spirit then when we are born of the Holy Spirit then we are Holy Spirit.

However, Paul is speaking of mental or spiritual regeneration and not a literal indwelling of a member of the God family.

And be not conformed to this world: but ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God. Ro.12:2

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the (A) Holy Spirit, Tit.3:5

The Holy Spirit is the Mind of Christ (to us) in 1 Cor. 2. Therefore, to have the Spirit means we have the Mind of Christ.

Jesus did not say that you must be born again of flesh and the spirit, but of water and the Spirit.

Paul uses a similar pattern to the Romans and shows that the body of flesh (our carnal nature) will always be just flesh unless the flesh with which we were born is considered or reckoned to be dead because we place it alongside Jesus in the tomb when we are baptized "in connection with His death."

When we come out of the Water, Christ honors us for "accepting the will of God for our lives" and puts us into His kingdom which is totally Spiritual in nature.

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans 6:2

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,

even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4

Christ, the Spirit, choose water as a fitting way for us to accept His will for our lives. Our "birth body" does not literally die but we are born again in a spirit sense. That happens in the water.

Peter showed the two-fold baptism when he used the ark as a model:

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1 Peter 3:20

The Type: The like figure whereunto
The Anti-Type or spiritual: even baptism doth also now save us

(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, [This clearly implicates water]
but the request for of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

Again, this is the new birth of Spirit but, if we are to honor the counsel of God for our lives, we must allow it to happen when we undergo baptism. That baptism is in literal water because Peter wants the people to understand that this is not just another ceremonial washing to make you ceremonially clean. This new washing has its effects upon the Spirit.

The Gift of John Doe is Not John Doe as a Gift

John York: I think that is precisely the word of disorientation for a lot of us who have spent a good deal of our own teaching and believing lives concentrating on the need

for water baptism, without much or even any thought given to the Spirit.

Precisely because the teaching and translations always emphasized being born "again," not much thought has been invested in our being born from above, empowered by the Spirit. Ironically, in this text it is not water that Jesus emphasizes; the clear emphasis is Spirit! That's what drives the contrast in verses 6-8: "What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be astonished that I said to you, 'You must be born from above.' The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Jesus spoke in parables or a language to hid the truth from the doctors of the Law (hypocrites: speakers, singers and instrument players).  However, all you have to do is hide it in clear sight and the doctors of the law will use their imagination to REALLY UNDERSTAND that when Jesus used the word WATER He did not mean water.

Using the same WATER John does not confuse those who can read:

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; 
        and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
John 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim,
        because there was much water there:
        and they came, and were baptized.

Scholars disagree with Shelly and York.

Henry Alford: "There can be no doubt, on any honest interpretation of the words, that 'born of water' refers to the token or outward sign of baptism 'born of spirit' to the thing signified, or inward grace of the Holy Spirit. All attempts to get rid of these two plain facts have sprung from doctrinal prejudices, by which the views of expositors have been warped. Such we have in Calvin." (Alford's Greek Testament, Vol. 1, p. 714).

W. Robertson Nicoll: "To remove as far as possible the difficulty of Nicodemas as to the how (how, dp) of the new birth our Lord declares that the two great factors in it are 'water' and 'spirit.'" (Expositors Greek Testament, Vol. I, p. 713).

Marvin R. Vincent: "The exposition of this much controverted passage does not fall within the scope of this work. We may observe, 1. That Jesus here lays down the preliminary conditions of entrance into His kingdom, expanding and explaining His statement in ver. 3. 2. That this condition is here stated as complete, including two distinct factors, water and the Spirit. 3. That the former of these two factors is not to be merged in the latter; that the spiritual element is not to exclude or obliterate the external and ritual element. We are not to understand with Calvin, the Holy Spirit as the purifying water in the spiritual sense: 'water which is the Spirit.' 4. That water points definitely to the rite of baptism, and with a twofold reference to the past and to the future." (Word Studies In The New Testament, Vol. 2, p. 91).

B. F. Westcott: "It can, then, scarcely be questioned that as Nicodemus heard the words, water carried with it a reference to John's baptism, which was a divinely appointed rite (i.33), gathering up into itself and investing with a new importance all the lustral baptisms of the Jews." (The Gospel According To John, p. 50).

A. T. Robertson: "We are puzzled by the placing of 'water' here before 'Spirit' as a necessity to entering the Kingdom of God. But Nicodemas was troubled about 'Spirit.' He was thinking only of the physical birth. On the whole it is probable that by 'water' Jesus refers to baptism. John the Baptist preached repentance and practiced the baptism of those who confessed their sins." (Minor Characters In The New Testament, p. 6).

H. A. W. Meyer: "water, inasmuch as the man is baptized therewith (1 John v. 7, 8; Eph. v. 26) for the forgiveness of sins (Acts ii. 33, xxii.16; 2 Cor. vi. 11), and spirit, inasmuch as the Holy Ghost is given to the person baptized in order to his spiritual renewal and sanctification" (Critical And Exegetical Hand-Book To The Gospel Of John, p. 123).

It seems to this writer that water is the external component and God giving us a "clear conscience" or A holy spirit is what God does for us at the time of water baptism. Rember that water is not amniotic fluid. Secondly that John who had been born in a human sense still had to be born of WATER and SPIRIT.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 3: 6

In Calvinism, the ability to call God "Father" is defact proof that God has selected you and you cannot do anything before or after that event. However, the gift of the Holy Spirit is not the Holy Spirit as a gift. First, the Holy Spirit is the Mind of Christ which He has given to mankind as His Word.

And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God. Ec.3:13

Here, the gift of God is that which God gives.

Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God. Ec.5:19

Salvation is truly the gift of God as food and wealth and every thing in the universe is the gift of God. However, the gift is not God as a "personal possession" but the gift which god has and does give.

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. John 4:10 (The Words or Spirit of Christ)

But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Acts 8:20 (The power to lay on hands)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ro.6:23

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Ephesians 4:7

Only Jesus Christ was Incarnated with the Spirit of God. That means that Full Deity dwelled in Him (Col. 2:9). However, we do not receive the second incarnation. As the Spirit of God was the Mental Disposition of God delivered to us as the Mind of Christ (1 Cor 2), the prophecy of the Spirit which would rest upon Jesus was the spirit OF mental or spiritual qualities:

AND there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Isa 11:1

And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; Isa 11: 2

And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: Isa 11: 3

But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. Isa 11: 4

A person who has the gift of the Holy Spirit has the Mind of Christ and everything can be expressed in forms of knowledge about God. None of these are supernatural powers.

Jesus said that He spoke in parables "from the foundation of the world." Therefore, if you are making a cottage industry out of Genesis 1:1 Jesus would say that you have been fooled because you really aren't interested in truth.

The gift of The Holy Spirit is the gift of A holy spirit or the ability to listen to the Word of God without intruding our own selves in songs or sermons.

Purpose of Baptism

Peter said that baptism was for the remission of sins. For never means because of or unless one is looking from the side of completed action. Rather, for meant that through baptism one entered into the completed action of "the forgiveness of sins." Baptism had value because it was the way to accept the will of God for your life.

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves, being not baptized of him. Lu.7:30

If I "go into" a house then I am inside of the house with all of its protection.

If I "go into" the remission of sins then baptism was for the purpose of entering into the remission of sins.

Eisago (g1521) ice-ag'-o; from 1519 and 71; to introduce (lit. or fig.): - bring in (-to), (/ was to) lead into.

Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into (eis) the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. Acts 21:28

For or into is:

Eis (g1519) ice; a prim. prep.; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time...

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized (Water) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ

for the remission of sins, (into the remission of sins)
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Acts 2:38

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:41

Repent ye therefore, and be converted,

that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Acts 3:19

Those who received (believed and accepted and turned) the command and were baptized were the ones who were added to the band of believers.

Luke then identified those who had been baptized as believers.

And all that believed were together, and had all things common; Ac.2:44

Therefore, those who had not been baptized were not believers. Because one must have belief and then turn in repentance and obey whatever one believes, the word faith is therefore faith only.

The word Spirit, when used of God, means His Mind or "mental disposition." It means the same of mankind made in His image. (1 Cor. 2)

Jesus said that it took the birth of water (really death and resurrection) to destroy the physical body or mental disposition and receive a new mental disposition in order to SEE the kingdom of God.

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Matthew 13:13

Suniemi (g4920) soon-ee'-ay-mee; from 4862 and hiemi , (to send); to put together, i.e. (mentally) to comprehend; by impl. to act piously: - consider, understand, be wise

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: Matthew 13:14

Perceive: From Strong's "see" which is derived from g3708 meaning to discern clearly, to attend to, to experience, to perceive.

You cannot worship God in the flesh or by the flesh. Therefore, in you are to come boldly before the throne of Grace you must be born again to see the kingdom.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23

God is a Spirit:and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

And be renewed (neos) in the spirit (mental disposition) of your mind (nous); Eph 4:23

Therefore,

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 3:6

Jesus
Except a man be born of water	That which is born of the flesh is flesh
and of the Spirit	that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

Paul understood that God is not served in the external body but by the mind or spirit:

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Phil 3:4

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Rom 1:9

Peter showed how one is born of water and spirit. Baptism is the time and place where we ask God to give us a clear conscience or a clear consciousnessness. This means a holy or pure spirit without which we cannot see God:

Peter
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save	(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
	but the answer (request for) of a good conscience toward God,)
	by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Paul could serve God because he had a clear conscience. This is the gift of a holy spirit or mind:

I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 2 Tim 1:3

The gift of A holy spirit is a clear conscience. This is the power to grasp the Word which is hidden to those who have never turned to the Lord in baptism (2 Cor 3).

Suneidesis ((g4893) soon-i'-day-sis; from a prol. form of 4894; co-perception, i.e. moral consciousness; - conscience.

Suneido (g4894) soon-i'-do; from 4862 and 1492; to see completely; used (like its prim.) only in two past tenses, respectively mean. to understand or become aware, and to be conscious or (clandestinely) informed of: - consider, know, be privy, be ware of.

Mandaeands Sabians Iraq Christians

"Sabian" is a word derived from the Aramaic-Mandic verb "Saba" which means "baptised" or "dyed", "immersed in water". "dMandaeans" is derived from "menda" which means in the mandiac language "knowledge". Thus, "Mandaean Sabians" means those who are baptised and who know the religion of God.

Jesus knew that to refuse to submit to a visible model or form of His own sacrifice would mean that one did not have faith or trust upon Him. My dad used to say: "I believe in the Boeing 747 but I don't trust upon the Boing 747." Or, "I will fly anywhere I can keep one foot on the ground." This illustrates the difference between simple belief and faith where faith means "we get into the flying machine" if we want to get to heaven. At the same time, we recognize that we are not the pilot. That is why we just follow his orders and not whine.

In John 3:5 both a birthing (after burial) and a new Spirit or mind or mental disposition, made over into the Mind of Christ (1 Cor 2), gives one the power to ENTER the kingdom of God. Why would Jesus say, in effect, that you must have a new body by reckoning the old body dead? Paul wrote:

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through (g1722: in a place of rest) Jesus Christ our Lord. Ro.6:11

The word in or through, according to Strong, means going beyond the word eis or g1519 which Peter used in Acts 2:38. Baptism is for or eis entering into Christ: those who have reckoned their old selves dead to external influences but alive to internal things are in Christ. Jesus, Peter and Paul say that this is by putting our bodies into the watery tomb with Christ to "lie alongside" or identify with His death, burial and resurrection by the Spirit.

Now working backward, we want to know why Paul thinks that baptism is so important. It is because Jesus Christ, Who had already been born in a literal, physical sense of being the child of Mary, demonstrated the "born again" meaning of John 3:5-6:

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Romans 6:10 (God is pure or Holy Spirit)

How, then does Paul understand "you must be born again?"

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3

How is one baptized into Christ (this is the real, spiritual baptism)? Paul said that we are buried with Jesus in the only way we can reproduce the actions of Jesus: we can be baptized in the likeness of His death. Water baptism is the only way this "born again" can be enacted:

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4

By reckoning the body dead, we can walk by the spirit or renewed mind. A spiritual walk begins in a mind conformed to the Mind or Spirit of Christ.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:5

We are born AGAIN WITH A new spirit when we are born out of the water.

Planted is:

Sumphutos (g4854) soom'-foo-tos; from 4862 and a der. of 5453; grown along with (connate), i.e. (fig.) closely united to: - planted together. (grow jointly, to be in harmony)

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:6

For he that is dead is freed from sin. Romans 6:7

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Romans 6:8

"Faith only" is never associated with or used figuratively of being dead with Christ or burried with Christ.

Now, I know that the kingdom of Christ is used in a collective sense of the church or those who have come under the mental rule of the Spirit (Mind) of Christ. However, on an individual level (where birth always takes place) the kingdom is within the mind or heart of the believer.

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Luke 17:20

Neither shall they say, Lo here or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21

This is why Jesus said that worship doesn't take place in a physical "place" (even in church assembly) but in the spirit or mind or innermost being:

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. John 4:21

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father

in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23

In a real sense, Jesus said that if you think of an external place -- your temple or mine -- you cannot worship. Remember, that when Jesus wanted to speak to the Father, He sought a quiet place and told us to go into our closet. This, to the Jews, was the "prayer cloth." By covering the head with the cloth they went into their closet because prayer is personal. I will appreciate any prayer you offer on my behalf. But, Puullleeezzeee, don't call a massed meeting with 24 hours of rote prayers. God is not a human ruler and He does not need to be importuned to exhaustion. Indeed, such prayers smacks of the pagan belief that if they got violent enough (the Hebrew Halal) they could force God to open His eyes and grant their wish.

While the church assembles it is never said to have assembled for worship. Others cannot worship for us or perhaps even lead us in worship. What we do is to gather to, like the Synagogues, dialog with God: He speaks to us through His Word and we speak to Him in prayer. In addition, we know that the early churches assembled each week to eat the Lord's Supper as both a memorial and a means to spiritual revival through retelling the story of Christ.

Paul, to the Romans, continues to show that "born of the Spirit" or having "the gift of the Spirit" is to have the Mind of Christ or Mental disposition of Christ. This would mean that we not be dominated by the flesh or "dead" body but by the Spirit.

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

The word born in a spiritual sense means to have our spirit or mind regenerated so that it depends totally upon the Spirit or Mind of Christ.

In Romans 7 and 8 Paul shows how having the Spirit means being in Christ so that our spirits are ruled by His Mind or Spirit.

The importance of baptism is proven when Jesus gave the Great Commission. All of these commissions are explained away because there is a mortal fear of entering into the watery grave if it is implied that this is the time and place where the old "body" or human senses must be a "living sacrifice" willing abandoned in order to live in the Mind or Spirit where Father-Son live in us as the Holy Temple.

This has been long-winded but I hope that it helps.

Click Here for the Nicodemus story of the new birth within the context that the Words of Christ are the Spirit element into which we are immersed as discernment of the total Word as a result of "turning to the Lord" and having the veil lifted.

Kenneth Sublett

Rubel Shelly Sermon Reviews

Baptism Index

Home Page

 <img src="/cgi-bin/Count.cgi?df=piney/counter_MailJohn356.html.dat">

Counter added 5.27.05 4:37p Rev 7.07.07 903  3.06.10 4000 7.27.11 4262